Self Deceit and Faith.

by hillary_step 208 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  tijkmo

  you may just chose to not believe in electricity. it does not give us any hope either.

  i suppose that would depend on your definition of hope.

  it does give me a lot of enjoyment (well it passes the time)...with it i can watch tv, play music, use a computer, drive a car, cook food, heat my house etc etc etc

  i certainly hope i will be able to do that for the rest of the day...and tomorrow...and for as long as i wish to remain alive.

  i do know that without it i would not want to live so i guess in that sense it does give me a modicum of hope.

  i would be pretty stupid to deny its existence just because it didn't give me 'hope' since i use it continually. (unless there is a defintion of electricity that i am unaware of)

  i also hope the sparrows in my attic don't change into eagles cos that's gonna be a problem..oh wait no it won't cos it's not gonna happen. (cos there aren't any)
• 

  Superfine Apostate

  > i would be pretty stupid to deny its existence just because it didn't give me 'hope' since i use it continually.
  
  exactly. but even if you wouldn't believe in electricity, you could still use it. it still would be there. and if you don't believe in gravity, you'd still not be able to fly without technical aid. and if you don't believe in evolution, life still changes.
  
  > i also hope the sparrows in my attic don't change into eagles cos that's gonna be a problem.
  
  i guess you know that that's got nothing to do with evolution...
• 

  ellderwho

  Hillary,

  We convince ourselves of what we need, at the time we need it.

  What I would also suggest is that our knowledge of "god" is no more advanced that it ever has been. We may believes in the concept of a universal god, but we dress he/she/it in the clothes of our own self-deception. I cannot see how a subjective view of what will very probably always be an unknown can carry any weight at all as it is dependent not on fact but fantasy, and that all that can be relied on for a certainty is the measurable and falsifiable at any one time in human development

  Btw great thread. In trying to wrap my mind around the idea of "self deceiving" I have to consider, truth. Do I have it? If I dont, Ive been deceived or lied to. If I have truth and knowingly surpress it, then I live a lie. And have become very good at concealing truth.

  What then is the final reference point of truth?

  The problem is, can I contradict myself and actually practice whole heartedly the act of "self deception"? If I genuinely believe in God, at what point does the deception kick in?

  I think self deception is a easy term to throw around but difficult to explain.

  "who has deceived thee so often as thyself"... Benjamin Franklin
• 

  serotonin_wraith

  tijkmo,

  What is your view of antibiotics?

  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/10/4/l_104_03.html

  If we didn't understand the process of evolution, we couldn't fight diseases in this way. We can live longer, healthier lives if we understand evolution. What good is false hope at the end of the day? You may be comforted in the here and now, but that won't mean you'll live forever. You just think you will. Why waste the only life we know for certain we have with wishful thinking and delusion? Why can't you be satisfied with this life? We get more years here than most animals do. You were lucky enough to be born in the first place. The universe doesn't owe you one, you owe the universe. You're not a child now, you're an adult.

  You said there weren't facts, I've provided them. It's your choice if you don't want to look at them. You just have to understand that it's not because the facts aren't true, it's because you're afraid to look at them and see them for what they are.
• 

  tijkmo

  	Evolution of Antibiotic Resistance:
  	Forty or fifty years ago, thanks to antibiotics, scientists thought medicine had all but eradicated infectious agents as a major health threat. Instead, the past two decades have seen an alarming resurgence of infectious diseases and the appearance of new ones. Today, the AIDS virus, tuberculosis, malaria, diarrheal diseases and other infectious agents pose far greater hazards to human existence than any other creatures.

  hey - way to generate hope lol

  and btw i don't wanna live tomorrow so i certainly don't wanna live forever

  tijkmo of the afraid to look class
• 

  hillary_step

  tijkmo,

  You were even stupid enough to state recently that you did not believe that a "sparrow could become an eagle".....lol showing a complete ignorance of the subject at hand.

  You seem to be under the impression that this post was directed at you when in fact it was a reply to BA.

  You may be uninformed about the process of evolution, but you are certainly not stupid. BA is both.

  HS
• 

  hillary_step

  elderwho,

  If I genuinely believe in God, at what point does the deception kick in?

  Well, as I have noted my own view is that the concept of a god is not a self-deception. It is a way of trying to understand the mystery at the root of our existence.

  I posit that anything added to this in the way of dogma or belief, what people call "faith", is a form of self-deception in that it attaches unproven and unmeasurable appendages to a concept. It is rather as if a scientist pronounced a hypothesis as a theory and expected it to stand untested.

  I offer in evidence of this that history has unravelled every dogma of "faith" wound into belief by the ancients apart from the concept of god. Of course, there are those who adhere to these dogmas, in our world for example C1st dogmas and will do so depsite any evidence undermining their belief system. These might range from belief in the person of Jesus Christ, who probably but did not definately exist even as an historical figure, to his virgin birth, his walk on water, his resurrection of the dead, right through to the apocalyptic visions which seem to be needed to give hope to believers.

  In other faiths a similar tale unfolds. Dogma shattered, or in the process of being shattered by the passage of history and believers who are wont to let go of the myth and legend in favor of "faith". All we are really left with is the concept of a God, the rest has been a cultural form of self-deception.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Well, as I have noted my own view is that the concept of a god is not a self-deception. It is a way of trying to understand the mystery at the root of our existence.

  HS, may I ask if this is a recent view on your part? I was under the impression up until recently that you felt that it was in some sense delusional. Maybe I am conflating your posts with some others here on this site.

  Burn
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  HS,

  Always good to hear from you!

  I have not read other responses to your questions, but here are my responses:

  1) In what way is faith not self-deception?

  In my mind faith is a person’s loyalty to whatever they trust (in or of something). The point a person’s loyalty (in or of something) exceeds their trust (in or of something) is the threshold into self-deception. So long as a person’s loyalty remains consistent with their trust then the loyalty is not self-deception.

  In this case the question becomes, “Is the person’s trust self-deception?” The answer will vary from person to person depending on intelligence, education and exposure. However, as a rule I believe it is universally accepted that any person whose trust is inconsistent with what they know/believe to be true is then practicing self-deception. Another universally accepted rule, I believe, is that anyone who refuses to examine evidence countering a preferential belief is practicing self-deception.

  Faith is not self-deception if it is consistent with a person’s knowledge and the person is willing to honestly engage information pro and con.

  2) Is a person who has faith in a God that you do not believe in, say for example Siva, practicing a form of self-deception?

  Depends on whether this person’s faith in Siva is consistent with their knowledge and the person is willing to honestly engage information pro and con regarding Siva’s alleged god status.

  I do not believe there is a living/breathing/real god entity named Siva. Yet I believe it is possible for a person to have faith in Siva as a god and not be in a related state of self-deception.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  hillary_step

  Burn,

  HS, may I ask if this is a recent view on your part? I was under the impression up until recently that you felt that it was in some sense delusional. Maybe I am conflating your posts with some others here on this site.

  Yes, you are mixing up my posts with another persons. I would never, and have never denied the possibility of the existence of god, gods or semi gods.

  If I had a "belief", it would certainly not be founded on primitive mythic principles that despite being way past their 'sell by' date are still holding the human race in their grip, but it may walk the way of Quantum physics, despite my suspicion of its more mystic qualities.

  In my view, those who in a modern world adhere to tenets of faith contained in Bible's and Koran's are like a person sitting in a Porche with a Model 'T' handbook in their hands wondering why they cannot get the car to run properly.

  HS