Self Deceit and Faith.

by hillary_step 208 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  serotonin_wraith

  hey - way to generate hope lol

  Diseases exist. It's a hard fact of life. We can either cry about it and do nothing, or learn what's involved in combatting disease and try to overcome it. We get more hope from the second option.

  and btw i don't wanna live tomorrow so i certainly don't wanna live forever

  tijkmo of the afraid to look class

  Eternity in heaven or something then, I should have been more specific.

  You don't seem too happy now so your hope may not be helping much. Learning more about the world around us can be exciting and give life meaning by itself (the first video on Growing Up In The Universe goes into that). You don't have to lie to yourself to be happy, and I'm not convinced it does make you happy. Maybe at one point it did, but if you'd rather not be alive now, maybe it's time to look at other options.
• 

  tijkmo

  You seem to be under the impression that this post was directed at you when in fact it was a reply to BA.

  no i did realise it was addressed to ba..i was merely making the point that to disagreee with someone's belief does not of itself make them stupid..

  i am not familiar with bas convictions and if you have more information on that then i guess you feel you are in a position to make that call..you did observe that you didn't think that i am stupid and i guess you base this on previous interactions ...but i have to say that there have been occasions in my life when i have been very stupid...very stupid indeed. again it comes down to definition and context.

  as far as sparrows are concerned i don't believe that a sparrow can turn into an eagle but as has been observed this is not about evolution..if one professes a belief in god then i would suppose one would base it upon the bible which has an account of the flood in it and therefore from 2 of every kind all species now exist. this means that obviously some where along the line stuff happened.(if that is one's belief)

  the evidence for stuff happening is the same for 'evolutionists' and for 'creationists'...and yet they come to different conclusions...both can't be right altho both may be intelligent.

  i used to think it was my duty to inform people of their wrong conclusions first as a jw....and then as an exjw.

  now i think life is hard enough without undermining whatever it is that gets folk thru the night so to speak - including their 'faith' in whichever unprovable account of the origins of life they believe.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  primitive mythic principles that despite being way past their 'sell by' date are still holding the human race in their grip

  Thank you HS.

  Could you kindly enumerate some of these mythic principles?

  Thank you.

  Burn
• 

  LittleToe

  I've just stumbled across this thread and unfortunately am unlikely to find time to put enough into this reply, far less keep up with the thread, but as already stated it's completely up my alley. I'll just throw out a few thoughts in the hope that they contribute something to the mostly-worthy debate.

  In the first instance it could be stated that we are all self-deluding, period. We take in the evidence of our senses and interpret it in a manner that makes sense to us. Our brains seek patterns, making continual comparisons with our previous memories. There's no guarantee that we are observing or interpreting things in the same manner as our contemporaries.

  The beauty of the scientific method is that it seeks objectivity, at the very least by the consensus of repeatable experiments controlled by peer review. These are often conducted across the language divide. In this context it might be suggested that [Siva / Thor / Jehovah] are the same "object" that individuals interpret their subjective experiences as. Since "god" doesn't appear to turn tricks on command its awfully difficult to apply the usual scientific process, though. It would be akin to attempting to construct a rational model that would determine what a human would do in any given situation - its simply too complex.

  I'm really sorry to see that the theory of evolution has been abused in this thread. It has little to do with belief in a deity. I'm quite content believing in both. I do have to state that it is definitely a "theory" rather than a fact, though. If we try to redefine words to suit our own ends then we are further deluding ourselves.

  The bottom line is that generally speaking I agree with Hillary.
• 

  Leolaia

  In this case the question becomes, “Is the person’s trust self-deception?” The answer will vary from person to person depending on intelligence, education and exposure. However, as a rule I believe it is universally accepted that any person whose trust is inconsistent with what they know/believe to be true is then practicing self-deception. Another universally accepted rule, I believe, is that anyone who refuses to examine evidence countering a preferential belief is practicing self-deception. Faith is not self-deception if it is consistent with a person’s knowledge and the person is willing to honestly engage information pro and con.

  Marvin....That was well-put, captures part of what I wanted to say in much clearer language without the verbiage.

  And good to see you, LittleToe.

  In the first instance it could be stated that we are all self-deluding, period.

  A profound thought.

  There's no guarantee that we are observing or interpreting things in the same manner as our contemporaries.

  I agree.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Clear thinking.

  So hard to find.

  Burn
• 

  serotonin_wraith

  I do have to state that it is definitely a "theory" rather than a fact, though. If we try to redefine words to suit our own ends then we are further deluding ourselves.

  Isn't evolution just a theory that remains unproven?
  	In science, a theory is a rigorously tested statement of general principles that explains observable and recorded aspects of the world. A scientific theory therefore describes a higher level of understanding that ties "facts" together. A scientific theory stands until proven wrong -- it is never proven correct. The Darwinian theory of evolution has withstood the test of time and thousands of scientific experiments; nothing has disproved it since Darwin first proposed it more than 150 years ago. Indeed, many scientific advances, in a range of scientific disciplines including physics, geology, chemistry, and molecular biology, have supported, refined, and expanded evolutionary theory far beyond anything Darwin could have imagined.

  The people redefining words are those who believe theory only means one thing. It's like saying the word 'right' or 'left' only means one thing, when it actually has more than one meaning.

  It was brought up because BA said he saw design in the world and thought there had to be a designer. It was off topic I know, sorry Hillary!
• 

  Zico

  Hillary,
  
  I get what you're saying, and I mostly agree with you. I don't tend to be too assertive about beliefs, because it's all a bit like 'a striving after the wind' and they don't affect my day to day life, as most of them are irrelevant to my life, it can be amusing (and bemusing) to see people argue so vehemently for certain beliefs that make no difference to someone's life.
  
  I don't think I have anything else to add, at least not at the moment. I'll continue watching this thread with interest though.
  
  Regards,
  Zico
• 

  hillary_step

  Marvin,

  In this case the question becomes, “Is the person’s trust self-deception?” The answer will vary from person to person depending on intelligence, education and exposure. However, as a rule I believe it is universally accepted that any person whose trust is inconsistent with what they know/believe to be true is then practicing self-deception. Another universally accepted rule, I believe, is that anyone who refuses to examine evidence countering a preferential belief is practicing self-deception. Faith is not self-deception if it is consistent with a person’s knowledge and the person is willing to honestly engage information pro and con.

  Good to talk again and I hope that all is well with you too!

  I agree without reservation with the bolded statement in your comment, as I suspect you already assume.

  I gathered that the thrust of your post is where Leo was coming from in her posts also, but I need to ask both of you a question which actually brings me right back to my opening post and its definition of "self-deceit"

  Self deceit is described as a "misconception that is favorable to the person who holds it".

  Now, putting aside any hint of a person having an entrenched position and being loyal to it despite evidence to the contrary, the word "misconception" is where I am coming from. A person can hold to a misconception, and whether it is from blind "faith", consistent adaptation, or just because it is the next most logical attainment does not imo alter the description of 'self-deciet'. Motive and reason is not imo a relevant introduction to the issue.

  Would you not both agree with this?

  LT,

  How are you doing?

  Yes, it is a shame that this discussion veered into the "evolution" versus "creation" football field, but such is the nature of the beast.

  You are right, we are all self-decieved over something or the other, apart from birth and death. I was here discussing religious self-deceit and I am glad to see that you braodly agree with me over this matter.

  Tijkmo,

  I understand your fear that such discussions might strip a "faithful" person of hope and purpose. That is not my intention, but I do not believe that shying away from discussing such issues because it might shake our life to its foundations is a healthy thing either.

  HS
• 

  hillary_step

  Burn,

  Could you kindly enumerate some of these mythic principles?

  I have already mentioned many throughout this thread. Do you mean to say that you have not been reading my posts! Shame on you. ;)

  Virgin births. Worldwide floods. Resurrection of the dead. Walking on Water. Feeding crowds from morsels of food. Oil pots that never ran out of oil. One man redeeming mankind. etc. etc. These mythic principles, as Leo will attest to existed in various mythologies in some cases millenia before they were adopted by the early Christian Church.

  HS