Why socialism will not work in America...

by zeroday 254 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hillary_step

  Journey-On,

  "Now, what if I told you that Katie, who doesn’t work very hard.

  This is the whole point. What if I told you Katie DOES work very hard but is born on the wrong side of the tracks from your daughter. Hard work is no guarantee of success under the Capitalist system, which has imbued within it the injustice of advantage or disadvantage by sleight of birth. Where is the level-playing field of a just society in this? Social Democracy seeks to address such concerns by giving the power of decision-making to its working people, who after all are the very reason for the success of nations. The sharing of wealth with all its citizens is imo an ideal that should be elevated by governments, not sneered at.

  Under a Capitalist ideal, all men are created equal, but some are more equal than others. It always amuses me that the religious right in the US who view Darwin as the equivalent of the Devil's fart and who back 'capitalism' to the extreme, cannot see that they actually DO believe in the 'survival of the fittest' and apply it in its most cynical form.

  I have seen the name Chavas noted on this thread. Was he not elected by a democratic process?

  I measure the worth of a nation by the way it cares for its most unfortunate citizens, not by the 65 million dollar per annum bonuses it pays to it stock market gurus. Such disgusting excesses should pull at the justice strings of the system.

  HS
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Bubble Economics (thank you Alan Greenspan).

  Itself the result of government intervention, thank you. I'll take Adam Smith's invisible hand over the state anytime, thank you.
• 

  journey-on

  HS -- I've read enough of your posts to KNOW that you are never going to GET IT. No offense intended. But you are SO

  wrong on so many levels that I can't even begin to address them. It wouldn't do any good anyway. You are much too

  prejudiced against the American wealthy and successful.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  This is the whole point. What if I told you Katie DOES work very hard but is born on the wrong side of the tracks from your daughter. Hard work is no guarantee of success under the Capitalist system, which has imbued within it the injustice of advantage or disadvantage by sleight of birth. Where is the level-playing field of a just society in this?

  THE WORLD IS NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. GET USED TO IT. It is not the business of the State to level anything.

  Some of us are advantaged due to an accident of birth. Some of us lose everything in a disaster, or through sickness.

  Such is the world. It is a jungle.

  BTW, there is a great deal more economic mobility here in the US than there is "over there". You guys are to class oriented. Americans are far more egalitarian by nature. No nobility here.

  but some are more equal than others

  SOME MEN ARE UNDENIABLY MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS. To say otherwise is to deny obvious reality. Economic outcome is partly tied to the inequality between one and another. Obviously, you are no Einstein. No Nobel prizes for you. How unfair.

  What if you were an ugly, dull, and obnoxious man HS, would you have a "right" to be as successful with the opposite sex as I would be?

  Burn
• 

  BurnTheShips

  I measure the worth of a nation by the way it cares for its most unfortunate citizens, not by the 65 million dollar per annum bonuses it pays to it stock market gurus. Such disgusting excesses should pull at the justice strings of the system.

  I measure the success of a nation by how free it allows its citizens to be. The USA revolted against England over far less than what it is forcing its citizens to submit to currently.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  You are much too

  prejudiced against the American wealthy and successful.

  I've had the good fortune to work with Euros before. English and French. I currently work with several French that have been over here only a couple of years. From their descriptions, the hatred that exists towards those that have better means over there is very unlike what there is here. Even driving around in a very good car invites a certain level of hate that does not exist here.

  Americans admire those that become successful through talent and hard work. They are our role models. It does not seem to be like that on the other side of the pond.

  Burn
• 

  PrimateDave

  "Both parties are too socialist. Bush and congress have mismanaged the budget criminally."

  
  
  Both parties are Corporatist. When the Corporations and Oligarchy settle on appropriate candidates, then they let us decide in a "democratic" vote which of the two pre-approved candidates to elect. I don't imagine that there is 100% unity among the string pullers though, otherwise we wouldn't see problems with election fraud.
  
  Now, as to criminally mismanaged budgets, I agree that in response to Corporate pressure the government has removed regulations that have lead to Ponzi scheme financial rackets of a criminal nature. That and a massive Corporate Welfare system fed by printing boatloads of debt notes. It is an unsustainable system that ultimately leads to increasing poverty and oppression. The situation is far more complicated than there being too many unwed teenage mothers on the public dole, which is a straw man argument the so-called conservatives have successfully used to dismantle social safety nets.
  
  Frankly, I don't like people getting something for nothing, either. But, unless we are all willing to go back to the security of the tribal unit, I don't see any alternative to a national social system designed to help the individual human being; unless we are willing to accept homelessness, lack of health care, and malnutrition. Welcome to the Third World. Maquiladores, anyone?
  
  Dave
• 

  BurnTheShips

  removed regulations that have lead to Ponzi scheme financial rackets of a criminal nature. That and a massive Corporate Welfare system fed by printing boatloads of debt notes.

  Well. I certainly can't argue with you there. I think we need a system in which an immortal nonperson (the Corporation) does not have the full rights (actually it has greater rights) than a natural entity.

  America needs a return to the Spirit of '76 and whack these turkeys.
• 

  hillary_step

  Journey On,

  HS -- I've read enough of your posts to KNOW that you are never going to GET IT. No offense intended. But you are SO wrong on so many levels that I can't even begin to address them. It wouldn't do any good anyway. You are much too prejudiced against the American wealthy and successful.

  Is this your way of rebutting my post? You CAN begin addressing them by making a point by point rebuttal giving your reasons as to where I have erred. I would also like to make clear that at this stage I have not claimed to be a socialist, or even a social democrat. I have merely given examples of things that I personally find unacceptable in ANY society. Got it? As to your indication that I am prejudice against the 'wealthy' in American society, well this is nonesense as any person who read my posts carefully would ascertain. What I have suggested is that the economic EXCESSES in ANY society are repugnant to any person with a sense of justice and an understanding of the real needs of society and that a more even spread of wealth serves societies needs much more justly than the opposite. Now, please feel free to help me 'get it'; but be aware that I am well versed politically and lived under many different systems including the US system. I can guarantee from your comments you have experience of differing political ideologies is very minimal. HS
• 

  journey-on

  Americans admire those that become successful through talent and hard work. They are our role models. It does not seem to be like that on the other side of the pond.

  Interesting.

  My suggestion: Don't try to change American values to those of Europe's. Maybe people like HS could consider moving to the other side of the pond

  where they might be happier.