A STUNNINGLY simple question about JOHN 3:16 "For God so Loved the world."

by Terry 384 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Deputy Dog

  Terry

  To love man is to follow the value of man to its logical conclusion. To love a man who possesses no inherent value is to destroy the value of love itself because it would be based on a mere nothing.

  God hates what is bad and loves what is good. No man is good.

  You seem to have a warped view of total depravity. Total depravity addresses mans total inability to save himself or love/choose God! What or who told you man is worth nothing. The WT? Certainly not the bible!

  Romans 9:22

  What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

  God is above the law, when He himself created the law based on perfect understanding?

  God is above the law, when He himself created the law based on perfect understanding of man, His creation.

  How can this be true?

  He is God. Terry is not. Man is not God's equal, he is God's servant. Jesus came as a servant and served man out of love for him, not because He owed man anything. He came to redeem those He choose (and loved) before the foundation of the world.
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  Terry

  If you believe in the God of the Bible, you also accept that this God does not answer to you and that your ability to perceive is limited to the perspective of a single human mind which cannot possibly encompass that which you seek to judge, much less judge God fairly.

  But, you don't suffer such belief, do you Terry? So, why would anyone waste their time trying to open your eyes or answer within your peevish, unreasonable constraints? Could it be that we would-be answerers choose to endure your insults out of a hopeful love for your potential value, given the obvious current lack of basis? I think so.

  Is that an injustice? Perhaps in your mind, it is. Poor thing.

  —AuldSoul

  Every baby born in America has a potential to be President. Is that it?

  In God's eyes we are all the Adam that never was?

  If you bring enough pestilences, floods and curses along you certainly scourge the hull a bit and leave the---um--what's left? The spirit? What good is a spirit once the man is scourged? The spirit isn't man.

  I don't really buy that idea that we are taking up temporary housing in our skin.

  Justice is Justice (to invoke the spirit of Perry). Injustice is undoubtedly Injustice. So, God--who turns water into wine--turns injustice into justice and cursed man into his full potential.

  Isn't this really just magic-thinking?

  The process is so....wastefull...petty.....arbitrary and....(you fill in the blank).

  I see where you are headed here.

  I think you've given the very best answer imaginable.

  God saves the "potential" of man.

  So, how does this work? Does man die and come back as the potential? Or, should I give up making sense?
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  Terry

  You seem to have a warped view of total depravity. Total depravity addresses mans total inability to save himself or love/choose God! What or who told you man is worth nothing. The WT? Certainly not the bible

  You are chanelling John Calvin here, aren't you?

  My "warped" view is about what you'd expect of a totally depraved person--wouldn't you?

  When your children are born and you are holding them in your arms for the first time in the hospital room, do you look down into their little face and say "Totally Depraved Sinner" here.

  I doubt it.

  Man is worth MORE than God, in my view--mainly because man invents God like a monster from the ID.

  (Watch Forbidden Planet).
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  Deputy Dog

  Terry

  When your children are born and you are holding them in your arms for the first time in the hospital room, do you look down into their little face and say "Totally Depraved Sinner" here.

  I doubt it.

  Why would you doubt it?

  Man is worth MORE than God, in my view--mainly because man invents God like a monster from the ID.

  In an atheist world that's not saying much.
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  AuldSoul

  Terry: I don't really buy that idea that we are taking up temporary housing in our skin.

  You also don't really buy the idea of a personal unseen God.

  Your "STUNNINGLY simple question" is neither stunning, nor simple. I highly suspect you only asked in order to make several statements in response to anyone who dared reply.

  Your blathering reply smacked of the Chewbacca 'irrationale' in its complete non-response to anything in my post. You seemed like you went off on a Stewie Griffin rant.

  Stewie Griffin: [Oh, right. Like] every baby born in America has a potential to be President. Is that it? In God's eyes we are all the Adam that never was? [Is that it, Brian? Hm?] If you bring enough pestilences, floods and curses along you certainly scourge the hull a bit and leave the---um--what's left? The spirit? What good is a spirit once the man is scourged? The spirit isn't man[, is it Brian?]

  Terry: The process is so....wastefull...petty.....arbitrary and....(you fill in the blank).

  Here is where your perspective limits you again. 'Wasteful' and 'petty' are subjective terms requiring you to first know things you don't know. You would have to know what the eventual cost to benefit would be to the species in order to determine whether the process described in the Bible is wasteful. You would have to know the importance on a scale and scope beyond your ability to comprehend in order to determine whether the process is petty. Yet, you authoritatively throw these subjective judgments around about a being you don't believe to exist. You even seem to believe your doing so is rational, somehow.

  As to your characterization of the process being arbitrary, I agree completely. If God is as the Bible describes, then God is an absolute authority. God gets to make arbitrary decisions.

  How can you pretend to genuinely be curious about the questions you raise in this thread? You have weighed and judged God as a figment some time ago.

  I never said God saves the potential of man. I said he loves, cherishes, and values the potential of man. Obfuscate much?
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  AuldSoul

  {duplicate}
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  AGuest

  and take up precious board space (may you all have peace!), I would like to respond with the following, if I may. Thank you. It is an adapted except from a discussion on another thread:

  A loving God would not expect billions of others to die because of one man or woman eating an apple.

  ... it was not an apple. There was only one tree of its kind. And, God will adhere to His rules if it means MORE than the billions would die. Adam made a deal he could not on his own pay - in other words, he let his mouth write a check (to Death) that his *ss couldn't cover. So, God is covering it, with the blood of His Son. It would be dishonest on the part of God to invalidate the deal Adam made. So, He is "covering" Adam's very bad "bet."

  Some might think God should just end the game; swipe the chips to the floor and overturn the table. They might think He should just declare the game "over," Death the loser... and stop it now. If you play poker, however, you know that that can't happen, for several reasons: you would be shown to be a "bad sport" and maybe even a bully... and no true winner is declared. So what? So, although you ended the game, in the minds of the spectators, who really lost? You, who abruptly ended the game because YOU felt the stakes were too high? Or the person who appeared to have the greatest amount of chips at the time? If you don't play the game out... how do you know who the TRUE winner is?

  True...it looks like Death has a MUCH greater pile of chips. But that's because the Most Holy One of Israel is "all in". Not to worry, though, He still holds the "ace" card - Christ. At some point the game WILL be over... and as a result of that ace card... Christ... most (if not all) of the chips now held by Death... will be redeemed.

  But don't be mad at God for playing the game out. Rather, be mad at Adam, who sat down at the table in the first place, without enough chips to ante up, without enough skill and experience to play the game (although playing against a master at "bluffing"), and without enough character to fold when he should have, rather than hocking his own children to cover the pot.

  Again, I bid you all peace.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
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  fifi40

  AGuest

  The trouble with your scenario is

  1. Should God be really playing games.

  2. If he holds the trump card, the 'ace', then what the hell is the point of it all in the first place. Does he enjoy the suffering of mankind that occurs whilst he watches the 'game' play out. There is no skill or purpose to this game................it just reeks of madness and looks like a power trip............and we are all just pawns in that game. Pawns that could and never would have any choice or advantage.

  It stinks!!!!!
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  llbh

  The problem with your analogy and your philsophy is the inherently poor odds. All knowing all seeing god against feeble human, no one is going to bet in the game like that with any sense.

  Strikes me as bad odds of winning.

  If i am to believe in a god i want a much more cosiderate god

  David
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  AGuest

  May you both have peace!

  It could be that I didn't explain it as well as I thought; I don't play poker any more, so please forgive if I wasn't clear.

  But it could be that you missed the part about whose game it originally was: Adam's, God's son... and Death's. God neither solicited the game nor accepted the solicitation. Rather, as many a parent would, given very high stakes, He simply sat down after it was apparent that the son was in... over is head... as well as the grandkids' cahones. How many parents today wouldn't step in when their child has made a bad decision... to the severe detriment of the entire family, and particularly the grandchildren? Not many.

  It could also be that you don't play poker and so don't actually get the analogy: the game is not an "all knowing all seeing god against feeble human." The "game" is now God... against Death. Death is the opponent here, the "last" enemy... not mankind. Humans are merely the "chips" that Death is holding... butGod will redeem... with the "ace" card, Christ.

  If you would be so kind, please re-read who the players were, are... and how they got into the game. Again, God was not an original player, here; He merely covered the check that Adam's mouth wrote... but *ss couldn't cash.

  I bid you peace.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA