Feedback needed please

by MrMoe 55 Replies latest jw friends

  • mommy
    mommy
    Got to ask---when was the last time you saw a ravaged human body up close before the mortuary worked on it----just what I thought.

    Actually the first time I saw a ravaged body was when I was around 8 years old. It was actually a time I remember enjoying in my childhood. We were on our way back from the slopes, the whole family had been skiing with a group of other witnesses, and we were driving home, singing kingdom melodies. We happened upon a car accident, it blocked the road and the driver had crawled out into the middle of the road. Due to the snow being white, we had a good up close view of all the blood and yes guts all over the road. Not to mention the screams from him, because he was still alive. We also couldn't help but notice that half of his leg was missing, and he was screaming for his child. There was a baby carrier also laying in the road, surrounded by blood, but we were unable to see the baby anywhere.

    Now my question is...is life really that predictable that you are able to choose what you want to view for the rest of your life? Can you turn a blind eye to things you don't want to see? Of course not, because chances are, you already saw it and it is too late. Would I wish this upon anyone, of course not. But any time of our lives we may be forced to witness acts that we don't agree with, and I would rather my children be prepared than be in shock.

    The reality is the Holocaust did occur, horrible things happeed during it, and to shelter or skim over the facts is really not getting a clear picture of what really happened. Not one of you can deny that retelling of a story and actually seeing it, have the same affect. Because it is just not so.
    wendy

    Blind faith can justify anything.~Richard Dawkins

  • Andee
    Andee

    First off, 14 year olds are not young adults. They are CHILDREN starting to make that agonizing transition into adulthood.However, the are still children.

    As for the boys laughing; that comes as no suprise to me. Why? because what 14 year old boy, no matter how horrific the material he is viewing, is going to allow his schoolmates see him cry.
    The teasing that would follow would be torture.

    As for everyone that thinks that children ought to get a nice big dose of real life, because we can't shelter them anyway, I offer this for your consideration:

    What if the subject of the class instead of the Holocaust, was Having Sex? Instead of watching videos of people being lined up to be exterminated, they would be required to watch at least three porn flicks and then write about their feelings. Now, mind you, not that silly soft variety, but the XXX stuff.

    Next, students would be required to take off all of their clothes in front of each other just to get a feel of what it's like.

    Finally, they are required to read a sexually explicit book. Then, write a report on it.

    Now, why on earth would anyone have a problem with that???? Our children are bombarded daily with sexual images. Let's teach them how it is in the REAL world. Watching strangers having sex is certainly no worse than watching strangers slaughter each other, is it?

    Andee

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Andee:

    An interesting post, but sex and violence are two completely different activities, requiring completely different analyses and approaches. The subject of the class is not sex, it is the holocaust, and that is the basis behind this whole conversation and the comments made.

    I'm sure you are aware that in other places in the world, fourteen year olds and younger are fighting wars, killing and being killed; starving to death daily, watching their families die of horrific diseases. There are a lot of fourteen year olds who see and deal with things that would no doubt make us break down. No I don't think that just because other kids are suffering, Western kids should too, but I do hope that as part of their upbringing, they are helped to appreciate that most people in the world are not as fortunate as they are, that many many people suffer badly. If they cannot appreciate that, there is not much hope for a solution to these problems, imo. If the suffering of others is never more than a statistic on a page, a bit of light reading before going home to supper, where is the motivation going to come from to help these suffering people, and prevent things like the holocaust from happening again?

    Expatbrit

  • Andee
    Andee

    Mommy,

    A car accident is just that, an accident. My children and I were in a head on accident 10 months ago. Luckily, they were not seriously hurt, but I was. Yes, they had to see the blood and gore.
    Yes, they were extremely upset seeing their Mommy in that condition.
    However, there is a big difference between that and if they witnessed someone deliberately harming me. They knew it was an accident and the harm was unintented.

    Of course all of us do not know what is waitng for us around the corner. However, to deliberately expose our children to violent images in which they are clearly not emotionally ready to cope with is appalling.

    Andee

  • mommy
    mommy

    Andee,
    I agree that we have no control over accidents in our lives. I was responding to the question from Hillbilly. I also pointed out that we do not know what will happen when we turn the corner. Andee, your children could have been with you when a person hijacked you at knifepoint to steal your car as well. You never know. Anything can happen to any of us anytime, as you said.

    Also I find it funny you would note the difference between accidents and acts of violence, when you are trying to compare violence and sex. There are differences between all of these acts and if this discussion is to be a discussion shouldn't it stick on target? The holocaust, and scenes from the holocaust was the original question in this thread. Do you feel that the kids will walk away with the same notions if they read a story or if they saw the footage?

    I also think it is important for kids who come from a sheltered home, as I said, a parent may have a racist attitude towards Jews. But here the kid will be able to actually see what happened to the jews, and they are young enough to mold. They will be able to sepearate their parents thinking and reality of what really happened to the Jews, and others.

    When I first responded I said it should be on an individual basis. I still beleive this. Some kids are better equipped to handle these scenes than others are. To blanket the entire discussion and say it should not be viewed, is a wide sweeping generalization. and to harbor our children from seeing acts of violence, accidents, etc is not preparing them to face the world.

    I understand what you are saying, and I wish my kids could stay right here with me and never have to leave the house(kinda) But the reality is they can't and I want to prepare them for the horrors of this world. And I am more than willing to allow them to see, read, hear things that can be discussed together. To never allow them this until they are an adult, is only damaging to them. Alot of things can happen between now and 18, the most unthinkable things actually.
    wendy

    Blind faith can justify anything.~Richard Dawkins

  • Andee
    Andee

    Expatbrit,

    I regret that you do not see my point. That point being that sex is also apart of life. People that believe that children should be exposed to violence to "develop" their empathy, would never allow their children to participate in a class like that. Is sex worse than gore and violence? Just something to think about.

    I agree with you wholeheartedly about kids in the west being aware of the plight many children in the world live. I really try to teach my daughter how lucky she is and that many children only dream of the life she has. We do what we can to help others, as we live rather modestly ourselves.

    When she is exposed to images of other children suffering, we talk, and I try to help her understand some of the cruel realities of the world. Do I think I can shelter her from everything? No way. However, I am going to do my damnest to try. Yes! I am one of those parents that believes that childhood ought to be protected. As long as I have the power, I am going to do it. I make no apologies for that. As she gets older I will allow her to be exposed to those terrible things that I think that she can handle. I can guarantee it ain't gonna be children being skewered on a pitchfork when she is 14!

    I believe that adults, not children, ought to carry the burden of witnessing violent atrocities. And for adults to deliberately dump that burden on them before they are ready is revolting.

    Andee

  • LDH
    LDH
    the boys were not really all that disturbed, they in fact laughed periodically throughout the videos as the girls sat there and cried

    Please don't perpetuate this myth! Boys wouldn't cry because they are socially acclamated to NOT cry! That doesn't mean that these images wouldn't disturb the hell out of them. call it 'nervous laughter.'

    Julie, your comments make me laugh! I find it interesting that because I used 'White Flight' as an example, you've decided I'm black, LOL!

    Do you think I live in Compton? Don't be silly, I live in the burbs the same as you do. Do you think there's not any GOOD people living in the inner city? Out of a whole apartment building, just one or two families could ruin it for everyone!

    My point was that YOU CAN'T AVOID TRAGEDY BY PRETENDING IT DOESN'T OR WON'T HAPPEN TO YOU. *NOT* that ANYONE, black or white, can be blamed for moving to the suburbs to escape much of the inner city crime

    some neglected white kids taking out their anger on their schools has anything to do with the White Flight out of the cities after all the race riots.
    NOT to turn this into a race topic, but do you really not see the hopelessness of these young criminals, black white or other? You mention race riots! Do you think ALL teenagers don't or can't see hypocrisy in the face of "You're ok for an Asian/Muslim/Spic/Black but I'm gonna make sure our real estate agent moves us into a red-lined neighborhood where everybody looks just like *ME*."

    I wish EVERY child could grow up in peaceful oblivion in the burbs (Mom drives an Explorer and Dad golfs on Saturdays)and never have to face reality. Not gonna happen.

    As far as blood and gore, the first time I saw remains of a dead body was when a classmate died. At the age of 16, he was riding in a pickup truck early one morning to go fishing with some buddies. A car rounded the corner, the driver had fallen asleep, and hit them head on. This was in the early 80's. No air bags, nothing. Frank died on his way to the hospital. My father took us to the junk yard where the car had been taken. The paramedics had amputated Frank's legs at the thigh in a vain effort to save him. His legs were still in the car, stuck.

    I have NEVER driven while asleep. It made that much of an impact on me.

    When I was a high school senior, the boy voted 'most handsome,' Mike Holtby, was in a drunk driving wreck with another classmate, Dennis Paxhia. Dennis died. Mike was burnt beyond recognition but managed to survive. Mike was one of the most popular kids in school.

    My sister and I visited him in the burn/trauma unit. You could smell him down the hall. Oddly enough, being JW meant we were ostracised by the 'in' crowd, so I wasn't sure what to expect. He told us we were the only two kids from the whole school who came to visit him. I did not turn away from his burnt body.

    My sister and I saw him a few years later, he told us how much he was touched that we were the only ones who ever came to visit him. It was like he died. Somehow, his friends from the 'in' crowd couldn't deal with the reality of trauma.

    Oddly enough, I've never driven anywhere after drinking even one drink.

    If the suffering of others is never more than a statistic on a page, a bit of light reading before going home to supper, where is the motivation going to come from to help these suffering people, and prevent things like the holocaust from happening again?
    Dead on, Eman.

    Lisa

    PS I find it odd that some wouldn't allow their kids to see these things in a real life scenario, but I betcha these same 14 year olds have seen a million R-rated movies like Silence of the Lambs or Hannibal. Which is better, to be entertained by gore or to realize it's real, and it isn't funny. As for myself, I choose NOT to watch violent movies. Why should I want to be entertained by images of death? Real people are living real lives where there is no director poised to shout, "CUT!"

  • Andee
    Andee

    Hi Mommy,

    Just wanted to let you know I agree about the whole sheltered life thing and race. My kid has friends from just every back ground. For us, race is just not an issue.

    See my explaination to Expat about the sex comparison. Just trying to make a point. We sometimes tend to shrug our shoulders at the violence our children might witness and say it's a part of life, but bring up sex, especially in schools, and people really get their dander up. I think that both subjects have great impact on how a child views themselves and the world.

    I do believe that children should learn about the Holocaust. I watched a movie on HBO (sorry, can't remember the name) about a rich New York Jewish girl who thought the Jewish traditions were silly. When she went to her families Seder, she had a dream that she was back in those times in a concentration camp. It wasn't violent, but the story had a powerful impact on my daughter. The horrible conditions, sickness, and fear. However, I would never allow her to see Schindler's List. I know many adults that had much difficulty sitting through that, myself included. My daughter would be devastated even if she could sit through it. That would just place too much of a burden on her.

    I agree that it is up to each parent to decide what their child is ready for. However, so many parents just don't give a damn and it infuriates me. However, I KNOW you are certainly not one of those.
    I think we just try to do the best we can and cross our fingers.

    Andee

  • BobsGirl
    BobsGirl
    I find it odd that some wouldn't allow their kids to see these things in a real life scenario, but I betcha these same 14 year olds have seen a million R-rated movies like Silence of the Lambs or Hannibal. Which is better, to be entertained by gore or to realize it's real, and it isn't funny. As for myself, I choose NOT to watch violent movies. Why should I want to be entertained by images of death? Real people are living real lives where there is no director poised to shout, "CUT!"

    Excellent point!!

    My two cents worth. I believe that your sister-in-law is being presented with a real learning opportunity here.

    She can watch and feel excruciatingly uncomfortable .... and grieve for the loss of many innocent lives. She can choose to remember that grief and make different choices than she might have had she not been touched by it.

    Or

    She could choose to stand up and fight for her right not to participate in an assignment that she finds offensive.

    Or

    She could have someone else fight for her in an effort to protect her from something that might be both excruciatingly uncomfortable and offensive.

    Any way you cut it, she is going to learn from this. Which lesson would she deem most valuable?? Which one would you have her pass on to her children??

    BobsGirl

    "May the work of your hands be a sign of gratitude and reverence to the human condition." - Mahatma Gandhi

  • BobsGirl
    BobsGirl

    Mommy ....

    I will be haunted by your description of that accident for a long time...

    BobsGirl

    "May the work of your hands be a sign of gratitude and reverence to the human condition." - Mahatma Gandhi

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