Feedback needed please

by MrMoe 55 Replies latest jw friends

Julie

Hi LDH,
You said:
:Julie, your comments make me laugh! I find it interesting that because I used 'White Flight' as an example, you've decided I'm black, LOL!
I did? Where do I refer to you as black? I don't care what color you are your comments regarding the white flight (nevermind the term you chose)seem angry. Words like "idiots" and inferences to delusional thinking on the part of an entire race reflect that regardless of your own race.
You also said:
Do you think I live in Compton?
Why would I think that? Why would I care?
You:
:Don't be silly, I live in the burbs the same as you do.
Actually I live way beyond the burbs in northern Michigan.
You:
Do you think there's not any GOOD people living in the inner city? Out of a whole apartment building, just one or two families could ruin it for everyone!
Gee LDH where did I say *that*? No "GOOD people" living in the cities? What an absurd idea. That originated in your own mind as did the blanket generalization that all the "idiots" are inhabitanting the "burbs", deluding themselves into thinking they are "safe".
You:
:NOT to turn this into a race topic,
Um, you were the one dragging all the race terms around to begin with.
:but do you really not see the hopelessness of these young criminals, black white or other?
Of course I do. Where do you read in my post that I do not? Where did this comment even come from? I know a lot more about it than you seem willing to assume but that is neither here nor there.
You:
You mention race riots! Do you think ALL teenagers don't or can't see hypocrisy in the face of "You're ok for an Asian/Muslim/Spic/Black but I'm gonna make sure our real estate agent moves us into a red-lined neighborhood where everybody looks just like *ME*."
Yikes! I am glad that the world's youth is not all as angry as you seem to think. The only thing I can think of why this "angry youth" theory might be mentioned by you is to excuse riots?? Not really sure, lame if that is the case.
What's up with all your anger?
You:
I wish EVERY child could grow up in peaceful oblivion in the burbs (Mom drives an Explorer and Dad golfs on Saturdays)and never have to face reality. Not gonna happen.
Wow, really? I don't know that such an idyllic life is such a good idea but there is no reason to force a child (and yes 14 is a child) to watch Executions and Mass Slaughters. Absolutely not. And that is a whole lot different than seeing an auto accident etc. No comparison.
I'd rather a child grew up with the notion that violence is unacceptable and can be done without than to see them have every material wish. Sure violence is everywhere and as long as we teach our kids "that's just the way it is" *shrug*, well, that's how long it will go on.
Just my view,
Julie
waiting

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Yerusalyim

OK,
I'm gonna have to side with 14 year olds being more than old enough to see this stuff in all it's gore. However, I think it would also be appropriate to have a stress debreifing afterwards. If they see this then they will understand its horor and perhaps kids like the nuts at Columbine won't idolize Hitler. Perhaps then the horrors of Rhawanda and Bosnia would become real to them. Perhaps then the kids will understand it's important to accept differences.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
outnfree

MrMoe?
I am wondering if you would tell us the names of these videos, please?
(The baby tossed on the pitchfork scene disturbs MY sensibilities as well.)
Yet, I am on the 14 years old is plenty old enough side of this debate. My children were 12 & 13 (eighth grade) when they studied the Holocaust at their Catholic grammar school. I seem to recall there was a video shown. I clearly remember that they had to do poster diagrams of how certain assigned camps were laid out, who lived in which barracks, where the towers and ovens were, where the Kommandant's house was, etc. Also, they had to find a survivor's biography and do a book report on it. I remember taking my daughter and her friend to the local Holocaust Museum (a small one) and all of us crying at the pile of shoes and the video presentations of survivors recollecting their ordeals. We learned together how Hitler's government slowly took away the rights of the Jews and other hated minorities until they became POLITICAL untermenschen even though we clearly understood that all humans had equal value before God. At the end there was a display where you picked an identity and then made yes or no choices and you found out whether you survived the war or perished in an oven or on a death march somewhere.
Last year (or was it the year before last?) I made all my kids (ages 11-16) sit through Life Is Beautiful even though they resisted because it was in Italian with English subtitles. That story actually has a bittersweet ending. They were glad I made them watch it, though, and it engendered several thoughtful conversations.
The oldest two have seen Schindler's List. It was a very important film in that it showed the reality of the camps as well as the difference one person could make if s/he rightly uses his/her influence for good even when it means personal risk to do right.
So I do not think, in principle, that a 14 year old needs to be 'sheltered' from the grisly reality of the Holocaust.
However, it does appear that the curriculum was not meant for sophomore Honors English and that the content of these particular videos was very disturbing to some members of the class. So I agree that those students should be assigned an alternate project or the lesson plan should be revised.
I must say that I find the Boxcar ride essay a fascinating idea and very appropriate to an English curriculum. Why this teacher is doing SO much on the Holocaust in an English rather than, say, a World History class is a bit perplexing as well.
I think BobsGirl's summation of the lessons to be learned here by your 14-yr-old sister-in-law are right on target.
Only she knows what lesson is most valuable to her at this point in her life.
outnfree
In dealing with fear, the way out is in -- Sheldon Kopp
yrs2long

This really has morphed into quite an interesting thread and I have enjoyed all of the posts thus far. I don't know any of you but I really wonder just how much class, race or some other variable plays into your view on this subject. I am probably going out on a limb here, but it seems to me that your view of how long childhood is or how it should be may be based on these factors too. For instance, if you are one of a minority group or low-income class, would you tend to see childhood as one of idealism or the harsh reality of not having enough to eat, of not being able to see your parents in their struggle to eke out a living and of witnessing violence first-hand.
I don't have any children yet, but I cannot imagine shielding them from the reality of our worldly neighborhood. I just know that wherever intolerance and hatred abide, I would want them to be able to recognize them for what they really are, and to know how far these things can go. There are still adults who cannot handle the reality of the holocaust and other atrocities. To me, childhood is a precursor to adulthood, and I want to start them on the right path. I also plan to be along for the bumpy ride providing support and guidance.
safe4kids

I've been following this thread with interest and thought I'd 'double-dip'
To me, childhood is a precursor to adulthood, and I want to start them on the right path. I also plan to be along for the bumpy ride providing support and guidance.
I totally agree! I think the original point of Moe's thread however, was that this particular girl was having real emotional difficulty dealing with the images she had been forced to view. THAT'S the part I have a problem with. Some 14 year olds, boys and girls, could watch such things and handle them; others could not. I'm not an expert on mental health, but I recall after the 9/11 attacks, psychologists were saying that PTSD was possible after only VIEWING violent and graphic scenes...some of the symptoms of PTSD are nightmares, flashbacks, inability to stop thinking about what was seen, and bouts of weeping. Now, before any of you accuse me of being extreme here, let me just say that I am only pointing out ONE possibility. If this were my child, and she was having the symptoms of emotional distress described by Moe, and I was convinced this wasn't an attempt at manipulation, then I would refuse to allow her to see the videos.
That said, I agree with everyone who says that kids shouldn't be artificially sheltered from the harsh realities of life. Our young people need to know about the atrocities that have occurred, else how will they be prevented from happening again? BUT...BUT!! The individual child needs to be considered; the age appropriateness of the material, etc. For instance, my kids are 8 and 10; they saw media footage of the attacks and we discussed them in depth. I held very little back but watched them closely for any signs that it was becoming too much to handle. But kids are also good at turning off when stuff gets overwhelming. My son watched CNN for about two days after the attacks and then he was done. I think he had reached the point where it was enough. I monitored his viewing but I didn't interfere and it led to some great discussions.
My children and I have conversations about racism; however, I don't show them pictures of lynchings that occurred after the civil war. I don't show them videos of hate crimes. My children know that child molestation occurs, they know it very well...we discuss these things, but I don't show them pictures or videos of children being abused.
One last thing.... 14 is right on the cusp of adulthood and some of you have made the point that other kids that age and even younger have experienced horrific things in their lives...all true. I hate that this is true!! I can't change that reality and yes, I want my kids to know what the real world is like! But it has to be communicated to them in age appropriate ways, and so as not to be emotionally harmful to them.
Just my opinion,
Dana
hillbilly

Mommy- that's a terrible way to learn about trauma, and yes, we don't always get to pick were we will "learn"about morbid events. However, past experience has show us that we can shape our youths concience without graphic watnon representations of the acts.
The boys laugh and giggle while veiwing these things, I have to believe that this is a little bit "whistling in the cemetary" mixed with the fact that the "realistic" fictional violence that these kids see nowdays desenitzes them to appreciate the real horror of actuall violence.
Long story short- some kids are so warped today that "real" images are just "another" image in their perspective.
Western culture has changed in the last 50+years. People had to assist in killing large mammals to eat, people fouth wars up close and personal, with telling results. Folks like Stephen Crane and Walt Whitman were still able to connect with people and appeal to ther compassion that's within us by telling stories. "Alls Quiet on The Western Front" is another example of accurate non graphic (at least visually) narration that changes perspective.
Cant' speak fo others but I know that my exposure to good literature , and the more "censored" war footage (for graphic content, not representation of the events) helps to shape my veiwpoint. There is a place to veiw these harsher images, especially to point out specifics in the educational process. I saw most of the Nazi stuff that Mr Moe is refering to at the college level. And it was appropriate for the points we were learning about. These images are not appropriate for general infromation and building veiwpoints at a 9th or 10th grade level.
Yes Expatbrit, comparing graphic imagery to pornography as teaching tool is a good comparison. There are kinder and gentler ways to teach children the act of love. The mechanics of sex- yes there are appropriate visual materials to illustrate those acts. However, many with limited conciences (for lack of a less judgemental phrase) can take any of these images and satisfy their baser instincts with them. Porn for recreation- your business.... Suitable for youngsters as a "teaching" tool, Not in my opinion.
Bottom line ----in todays society exposure to graphic historical images may only harden a child who hasnt had any "upbringing" and punishes children who probably woudl'nt become "axe murderers" anyway. I got to ask---why do you have to get a real combat vet drunk to get the real story? Same with a fireman or big city cop? My WW2 and "NAM relatives spared me of the" facts" till I was old enough to need to know em. Should'nt MRMOE expect the same from her school board?
LDH

Dana,
You said:
. I'm not an expert on mental health, but I recall after the 9/11 attacks, psychologists were saying that PTSD was possible after only VIEWING violent and graphic scenes...
(Correct me if I'm wrong here)--my memory is that all of the psychologists referred to repeated viewing of the horrific incidents on 09-11. Not the one or two time viewing of such images.
And I do in principle agree that a fourteen year old MAY--make that MAY be too innocent to see those images. But in order for me to buy her story lock, stock and barrel, she'd better not have sat through any blood and guts movies or read any Stephen King novels. To me, those wouldn't jibe.
And hey, it's also a little different because we can see images in real-time now, unlike the history reels of the 40's. Maybe more of an immediate impact?!?!
I DO know some 14 years olds who could not handle the subject--but they are all the children of fundamentalist religious Jesus nuts. (NOT knocking Christianity here.)
Years, you said:
if you are one of a minority group or low-income class, would you tend to see childhood as one of idealism or the harsh reality of not having enough to eat, of not being able to see your parents in their struggle to eke out a living and of witnessing violence first-hand.
I can't agree wholeheartedly. The Kennedy family children have probably never missed a meal in their lives. That doesn't stop them from being raging Democrats who want to spend billions on Social Programs.
I would say it more has to do with parental incluence. I grew up very 'privileged,' shall we say. Most of the REAL poverty and misery that I have seen has been in other nations. I saw this when I was a young teen traveling all over. Many times, children our own age were begging us for pencils or paper to write on. I learned to appreciate school more. Other times, I would watch people squat in the streets and do their business. I learned to appreciate the joys of modern plumbing. Then other times, I saw people eating rancid food I would not feed my cats. I learned to appreciate shopping in a clean well stocked supermarket.
On Oprah last week there was a young man from Ethiopia, I won't go into his whole story. Let's just say, his family escaped here, he put himself to work at school and graduated this year as head of his Harvard class. His observation about what he remembered most about coming to America: the pet food aisles in stores, and the pet superstores. He couldn't believe people spent money on pet food!
My point is that some Americans need to experience gross living conditions in order to learn from them; others do not.
Some children may benefit from the viewing of graphic war images, some will not.
It is a parental decision, either way. But it is good to get feedback like Moe did.
Lisa
(Julie, you're so silly I won't even respond to your words. As a 'relative' newbie, you still have a lot to learn about other posters.)
LDH

I stole this from MSIL's post, active today.
# http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=15693&site=3
I had occasion to travel to sub-Saharan Africa on business a year ago. While staying there I did my best to try and find internet-cafés as I wanted to check investments and email as frequently as I could.
One evening I went to one of the web-cafés and was busy until around 11:30pm surfing the web and going about my business. I was thirsty and asked the manager if they had any Cokes or other soft drinks. He informed me that if I crossed the street there was a small shop that served sandwiches that was open late. I paid him and left.
As I approached the shop I noticed some movement in the shadows and a small boy came out and looked at me. I greeted him. He said to me: “Please boss, can you buy me something to eat I am so hungry.”
I answered: “What is your name?”
”Lucas”, he replied.
“Lucas, do you know what time it is?” I asked.
“No boss, I saw you come over here though and I wondered….”
“Lucas, of course I will buy you something to eat. What would you like?”, I asked.
“Could you buy me a packet of potato-chips?”
“I’ll be right back”, I said. I returned a few minutes later with 2 Cokes, a beef sandwich and a packet of potato-chips”. I kept a Coke for myself and gave him the rest.
“Thank you, thank you boss”, he said and he started wolfing down the food.
While he was eating I asked him: “Lucas, why are you out here so late?”
“I live over there”, he said gesturing to a shop doorway.
“But where are your parents?”, I asked.
“My mother is dead from AIDS and my father took a new woman and told me to leave”, he said.
I asked: “Lucas, how old are you?”
“I am 8, boss”, he answered.
We walked a little together until we came to a better-lit area. I looked at him more closely. He had on a pair of shorts, a T-shirt and a gray sweater, which was filthy. I looked at his legs and they were scarred and one of them was festering. His little face was full of sores and his cheeks hung loose. At this point my heart felt as though it was being totally ripped from my body, but I managed to choke back any clear my obvious tears.
“Lucas, can I help you find a place to stay?”, I asked.
“Boss, no one will take me to their house…I am like my mother…you see my mouth?”, he said as he pointed to his sores.
“But Lucas what will become of you then? You need help…”
“Boss, am I too young to die? I am so scared…I see how my brother he died last month…he was 11 and he was much stronger than me”, he said.
“Lucas, everyone is too young to die. Please let me take you to someone who can help you”
“Boss, I must go now…I have been to the children-home and they try to make me go to school. I don’t want school…I will never use the stuff they learning me. You going to take me there? Please no, no!!” and off he ran back into the shadows.
I looked for Lucas, many times over the next week but I never found him. I cannot eat a packet of potato-chips even now. I have tried but I keep hearing that little voice asking: “Boss, am I too young to die?”
No, it doesn't bother me one damn bit for my 11 yo to know that her life is one of extreme luxury, and she didn't do a damn thing except get born to the right parents at the right time.
Lisa
Andee

The question of this thread is; will watching people being executed and a young child being impaled by pitchfork inspire a 14 year old to be more compassionate and sensitive to human suffering? Or will it seriously tramatize her to the point of nightmares. If the kid is having nightmares she shouldn't be forced to watch it. Just hearing the stories are shocking, let alone watching them.
I have shared this experience briefly in another thread. I only share it because I am sadden by children being deliberately being exposed to violence for which they are not emotionally ready. Kids can still be taught to have compassion and empathy without having to actually witness horrific executions.
Anyway, my experience. When I was 10 years old, being hidden in the shadows, I watched my father being beaten with a lead pipe. Why? I don't remember. I just know, I didn't recognize the man. I was standing only 10 feet away. I can remember, clear as day, the man yielding that pipe high over his head and bringing it crashing down on my Father who was laying on the ground. I remember the his screams, I remember his blood spurting.
Did this experience make me more sensitive to human suffering?? I don't think so. Would have it been better than I had been 14 when I witnessed this? Less traumatizing?? No way. And, I hope that my children NEVER have to see something like that, EVER!
How many people would want their children, even at 14 or older, to witness such a thing???
I mean, if you think watching people, especially children, being butchered in front of their eyes is a GOOD thing for your kids, well, then, go for it! Have a field day!
Andee

Feedback needed please

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