Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw

by reniaa 223 Replies latest jw experiences

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Hey jgnat as usual you read me better than most seeing I like exploring the debates :) Although I would question your use of the word "weak" and replace it with "easy targets" in arguements about other religions of were their logic is flawed.

    Looking at the tough arguement of 'taking the emblems' hmmm....well theres no getting away from it being a logical construct of JW's, that they've deduced it as a result of certain scriptures applying it specifically to 144,000 being only allowed to take the emblems and not too the "Great crowd", are they right? did jesus mean everyone or just the 144,000 thats a difficult one, certainly the scriptures they used do exist but would a uninterested observer come to same conclusion? This is hard for me because of not being a JW for so long i'm rusty on it, its one thing I am going to study to explore the reasoning and conclusions. certainly I can see why someone already used to partaking would class it as odd to say the least. Also its not just an issue of JW'S other christian faiths apply it differently to each other especially in how they observe it, If you look at the passover account which jesus is replacing, a yearly event it's obvious this was to be yearly too, not many christian faiths apply it yearly only, Also jesus did it informally between his appostles in direct contrast to how catholics apply it certainly you don't see the appostles kneeling before jesus waiting for bread to be put in their mouths by him ewww, this is a complex issue that needs further examination as a whole.

    Thankyou Jgnat and certain others for not taking the easy option of just saying i'm brain-washed or deluded or justs nuts lol and answering my points fairly :)

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    lol sirona I guess I must be less believable because i'm crap at spelling ^^

    Come on sirona how many times have people said "my terrible ex who was a JW did such and such to me" on this site and you've all simpathised saying its the WTs fault that the person was so horrible?

    And now you say I have to accept blame personally for being treated badly by men on the outside? you and blues would make a great abuse councilors (NOT), would you ask a victim what they did to provoke it?

    I put blame firmly were i see it which it the current morale trends which encourage lack of commitment. and i quote secular sources to back me up.

    Is Britain in moral decline?

    1670 published comments with 54 censored.

    Britain is in moral decline say 83% of people polled for the new BBC One religious and ethical programme "The Big Questions". Do you agree?

    http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/bbc/threads/show/7218

    I have made bad choices and others are luckier in their partners, but however many of the boxes are ticked or even how good a relationship is in the early years, things can change and I think its narrow to just say someone picked wrong and need to sort themselves out.

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    Reniaa,

    I appreciate your dilemna and situation in life. You need to do what feels right for you. If that means becoming an active witness again I wish you all the best. My wife is an active witness and I love her very much.

    As for me, I love God and his son Jesus very very much. I feel much better spiritually now then I ever did all the decades I was a witness. I have a personal relationship with Jesus. That means so much to me. I'm not born again, nor do I believe in a trinity, but I do believe the Bible is God's word and should direct our footsteps.

    Several on this board have helped me understand the difference between wanting a teaching to be right and finding ways of agreeing with it and really evaluating a teaching/doctrine/understanding against a completely neutral background (or as neutral a background as a human is capable of). For that knowledge I will forever be grateful.

    I truly do wish you much happiness Reniaa. If you ever want to talk about specific issues or doctrines in a non-confrontational way feel free to pm me.

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo
    is hard for me because of not being a JW for so long i'm rusty on it,

    Its as though you need the JW's to tell you what to believe. Can't you make up your own mind based on intellect and reason?

    You must have doubts about going back otherwise you wouldn't have posted this thread. You don't need any organisation or society to make up your beliefs for you which is what that statement implies.

    Paul

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    Following on from my point. I will never forget a CO saying from the platform of a CA that if the society says black was white i would have to believe them. He went on to say that at first he may have a problem with it but he would have to believe it because the Faithful and Discreet slave said it. A few years later my mom said exactly the same thing, i challenged her on it but she would have none of it.

    This for me is the fundemental flaw with the JW's. YOU ARE TOLD WHAT TO BELIEVE. Then if that belief changes, you then have to change your belief system the line up with the WBTS.

    Paul

  • Copernic
    Copernic
    Renia said : JW lies - there no getting around the fact that in predicting the "End of times" and swapping and changing with "generations" and 'new light' they have lost a lot of credibility, I always knew this would be an issue even as a young JW and probs why I have not as much issue with it as some, its one i struggled with even before the generation stuff, I can remember even thinking as a child they were getting into hot water, especially as none can know time and place and the best we can be is in expectation.

    1984, Georges Orwell

    A Party member lives from birth to death under the eye of the Thought Police. Even when he is alone he can never be sure that he is alone. Wherever he may be, asleep or awake, working or resting, in his bath or in bed, he can be inspected without warning and without knowing that he is being inspected. Nothing that he does is indifferent. His friendships, his relaxations, his behaviour towards his wife and children, the expression of his face when he is alone, the words he mutters in sleep, even the characteristic movements of his body, are all jealously scrutinized. Not only any actual misdemeanour, but any eccentricity, however small, any change of habits, any nervous mannerism that could possibly be the symptom of an inner struggle, is certain to be detected. He has no freedom of choice in any direction whatever. On the other hand his actions are not regulated by law or by any clearly formulated code of behaviour. In Oceania there is no law. Thoughts and actions which, when detected, mean certain death are not formally forbidden, and the endless purges, arrests, tortures, imprisonments, and vaporizations are not inflicted as punishment for crimes which have actually been committed, but are merely the wiping-out of persons who might perhaps commit a crime at some time in the future. A Party member is required to have not only the right opinions, but the right instincts. Many of the beliefs and attitudes demanded of him are never plainly stated, and could not be stated without laying bare the contradictions inherent in Ingsoc. If he is a person naturally orthodox (in Newspeak a goodthinker), he will in all circumstances know, without taking thought, what is the true belief or the desirable emotion. But in any case an elaborate mental training, undergone in childhood and grouping itself round the Newspeak words crimestop, blackwhite, and doublethink, makes him unwilling and unable to think too deeply on any subject whatever.

    A Party member is expected to have no private emotions and no respites from enthusiasm. He is supposed to live in a continuous frenzy of hatred of foreign enemies and internal traitors, triumph over victories, and self-abasement before the power and wisdom of the Party. The discontents produced by his bare, unsatisfying life are deliberately turned outwards and dissipated by such devices as the Two Minutes Hate, and the speculations which might possibly induce a sceptical or rebellious attitude are killed in advance by his early acquired inner discipline. The first and simplest stage in the discipline, which can be taught even to young children, is called, in Newspeak, crimestop. Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity. But stupidity is not enough. On the contrary, orthodoxy in the full sense demands a control over one's own mental processes as complete as that of a contortionist over his body. Oceanic society rests ultimately on the belief that Big Brother is omnipotent and that the Party is infallible. But since in reality Big Brother is not omnipotent and the party is not infallible, there is need for an unwearying, moment-to-moment flexibility in the treatment of facts. The keyword here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink.

    The alteration of the past is necessary for two reasons, one of which is subsidiary and, so to speak, precautionary. The subsidiary reason is that the Party(JW) member, like the proletarian, tolerates present-day conditions partly because he has no standards of comparison. He must be cut off from the past, just as he must be cut off from foreign countries, because it is necessary for him to believe that he is better off than his ancestors and that the average level of material comfort is constantly rising. But by far the more important reason for the readjustment of the past is the need to safeguard the infallibility of the Party( Governing Body). It is not merely that speeches, statistics, and records of every kind must be constantly brought up to date in order to show that the predictions of the Party (Governing Body) were in all cases right. It is also that no change in doctrine or in political alignment can ever be admitted. For to change one's mind, or even one's policy, is a confession of weakness.


    (...)

    He stepped across the room. There was a memory hole in the opposite wall. O'Brien lifted the grating. Unseen, the frail slip of paper was whirling away on the current of warm air; it was vanishing in a flash of flame. O'Brien turned away from the wall.

    ‘Ashes,’ he said. ‘Not even identifiable ashes. Dust. It does not exist. It never existed.’

    ‘But it did exist! It does exist! It exists in memory. I remember it. You remember it.’

    ‘I do not remember it,’ said O'Brien.

    Winston's heart sank. That was doublethink. He had a feeling of deadly helplessness. If he could have been certain that O'Brien was lying, it would not have seemed to matter. But it was perfectly possible that O'Brien had really forgotten the photograph. And if so, then already he would have forgotten his denial of remembering it, and forgotten the act of forgetting. How could one be sure that it was simple trickery? Perhaps that lunatic dislocation in the mind could really happen: that was the thought that defeated him.

    O'Brien was looking down at him speculatively. More than ever he had the air of a teacher taking pains with a wayward but promising child.

    ‘There is a Party slogan dealing with the control of the past,’ he said. ‘Repeat it, if you please.’

    ‘“Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past,”’ repeated Winston obediently.

    “‘Who controls the present controls the past,”’ said O'Brien, nodding his head with slow approval. ‘Is it your opinion, Winston, that the past has real existence?’

    Again the feeling of helplessness descended upon Winston. His eyes flitted towards the dial. He not only did not know whether ‘yes’ or ‘no’ was the answer that would save him from pain; he did not even know which answer he believed to be the true one.

    O'Brien smiled faintly. ‘You are no metaphysician, Winston,’ he said. ‘Until this moment you had never considered what is meant by existence. I will put it more precisely. Does the past exist concretely, in space? Is there somewhere or other a place, a world of solid objects, where the past is still happening?’

    ‘No.’

    ‘Then where does the past exist, if at all?’

    ‘In records. It is written down.’

    ‘In records. And—?’

    ‘In the mind. In human memories.’

    ‘In memory. Very well, then. We, the Party, control all records, and we control all memories. Then we control the past, do we not?’

    ‘But how can you stop people remembering things?’ cried Winston again momentarily forgetting the dial. ‘It is involuntary. It is outside oneself. How can you control memory? You have not controlled mine!’

    O'Brien's manner grew stern again. He laid his hand on the dial.

    ‘On the contrary,’ he said, ‘you have not controlled it. That is what has brought you here. You are here because you have failed in humility, in self-discipline. You would not make the act of submission which is the price of sanity. You preferred to be a lunatic, a minority of one. Only the disciplined mind can see reality, Winston. You believe that reality is something objective, external, existing in its own right. You also believe that the nature of reality is self-evident. When you delude yourself into thinking that you see something, you assume that everyone else sees the same thing as you. But I tell you, Winston, that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else. Not in the individual mind, which can make mistakes, and in any case soon perishes: only in the mind of the Party, which is collective and immortal. Whatever the Party holds to be the truth, is truth. It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Party. That is the fact that you have got to relearn, Winston. It needs an act of self-destruction, an effort of the will. You must humble yourself before you can become sane.’

    He paused for a few moments, as though to allow what he had been saying to sink in.

    ‘Do you remember,’ he went on, ‘writing in your diary, “Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four”?’

    ‘Yes,’ said Winston.

    O'Brien held up his left hand, its back towards Winston, with the thumb hidden and the four fingers extended.

    ‘How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?’

    ‘Four.’

    ‘And if the party says that it is not four but five — then how many?’

    ‘Four.’

    The word ended in a gasp of pain. The needle of the dial had shot up to fifty-five. The sweat had sprung out all over Winston's body. The air tore into his lungs and issued again in deep groans which even by clenching his teeth he could not stop. O'Brien watched him, the four fingers still extended. He drew back the lever. This time the pain was only slightly eased.

    ‘How many fingers, Winston?’

    ‘Four.’

    The needle went up to sixty.

    ‘How many fingers, Winston?’

    ‘Four! Four! What else can I say? Four!’

    The needle must have risen again, but he did not look at it. The heavy, stern face and the four fingers filled his vision. The fingers stood up before his eyes like pillars, enormous, blurry, and seeming to vibrate, but unmistakably four.

    ‘How many fingers, Winston?’

    ‘Four! Stop it, stop it! How can you go on? Four! Four!’

    ‘How many fingers, Winston?’

    ‘Five! Five! Five!’

    ‘No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are four. How many fingers, please?’

    ‘Four! five! Four! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!’

    Abruptly he was sitting up with O'Brien's arm round his shoulders. He had perhaps lost consciousness for a few seconds. The bonds that had held his body down were loosened. He felt very cold, he was shaking uncontrollably, his teeth were chattering, the tears were rolling down his cheeks. For a moment he clung to O'Brien like a baby, curiously comforted by the heavy arm round his shoulders. He had the feeling that O'Brien was his protector, that the pain was something that came from outside, from some other source, and that it was O'Brien who would save him from it.

    ‘You are a slow learner, Winston,’ said O'Brien gently.

    ‘How can I help it?’ he blubbered. ‘How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.’

    ‘Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.’

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5
    Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity. But stupidity is not enough. On the contrary, orthodoxy in the full sense demands a control over one's own mental processes as complete as that of a contortionist over his body.

    Love Orwell. Don't think she'll get it thought...that protective stupidity will come into play.

  • Copernic
    Copernic

    Reenia : Is Britain in moral decline?

    1670 published comments with 54 censored.

    Britain is in moral decline say 83% of people polled for the new BBC One religious and ethical programme "The Big Questions". Do you agree?

    Our ancestors, complained, we complain and our descendants will complain one day about the decline of the mores, of what the evil penetrates everywhere, the men are inserted more and more in the sin and their condition worsens. Actually however the situation does not change, but it remains and will remain the same one, except for some light variations, in a direction or the other, like water carried or reserves with limits more or less brought closer the shore, by the flow and the backward flow, in the movement of the tides. The defects are not clean time, but the characteristic of the men. Never no age was free from sin. - Seneca (+4-+65 DC), De beneficiis, Book I, 10

  • Eyes Open
    Eyes Open

    reniaa, Will you consider my suggestion of reading that book I mentioned? It's by a scholar of Hebrew and I found it very useful.

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts
    certainly I have looked but they are all tied up with the 3-1 trinity.

    You haven't looked very hard. Here is a start of religions that do not teach a trinity.

    • Christadelphians
    • Christian Science
    • Iglesia ni Cristo
    • Jehovah’s Witnesses
    • Mormons
    • Some Seventh Day Adventist groups
    • United Church of Christ
    • United Church of God
    • Worldwide Church of God

    What is more, the Watchtower is quite dishonest in its presentation of the Trinity teaching. A large number of Christians, such as Pentecostals are Modalists, believing in one God that appeared in different forms at different times. And of course there are the Bitarianists that drop the Holy Spirit and just teach the Father and son are one.

    BTW, you did not comment on the Scriptures that say Jesus is God, and that JW's are Polytheistic, not Christians as you incorrectly assert.

    If you were to be honest with yourself, you would have to admit you are returning to what is comfortable - no shame in that. But if you actually believe that one corporation teaches truth, and no one else worships God acceptably, that is a conceited and ignorant concept. I personally cannot wait for the time when bigoted religious organizations cease to exist.

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