reniaa said:..."Vinny you always have kind words for me and I do appreciate your points I can answer you in a nutshell by carrying on your example, if Jws are used car salesmen then the world is full of them and not just the religious organisations."
**** Thanks for the compliments. Btw, I never said JW's are used car salesmen (though some sure are like them : )), I said you need to examine any religion the same way you would examine a used car. Thoroughly and completely; and not taking just the used car salesman's word. Get outside opinions (as you are doing). But also, carefully look at the problems as well as the positives. But be sure to evaluate the entire organization carefully.
Reniaa said:.."You say they have the worsed history of any christian organisation in the last 100 years but if you say it is because of change then WHY is that a bad thing when you have on one side churches that have been teaching the same wrong rhetoric for hundreds of years without change?"
Here, read this story for example:
http://www.ajwrb.org/experiences/stories.shtml#kidney
Additionally, the WT Society has claimed special relationship with Jehovah. If Jesus chose WT upon inspection, and if WT says that they provide food from God, are His appointed channel today, then the facts, the doctrines, the policies and writings would support such lofty claims.
"Is not the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually since the beginning of the harvest period?" {WT Apr 1 1919 6414}
(A PERSONAL FAV BELOW)
1942 "The Watchtower does not consist of men's opinions" {WT Jan 1 1942 5}
(you have to love that one)....
("as the voice of God", how bout that!)
I am not making this stuff up.
(The really short version):
1927 "Spaniards .. and other backward races [came to settle in America under the influence of Rome]" {GA Nov 30 1927 141}
1929 "Thinking people would rather have smallpox than vaccination, because the latter sows the seed of syphilis, cancers, escema, erysipelas, scrofula, consumption, even leprosy and many other loathsome affections. Hence the practice of vaccination is a crime, an outrage and a delusion." {GA May 1 1929 502}
1921 "The size of the nose, as also the size of the eyes, is not without significance. The small-nosed man cannot have a judicial mind, whatever his other excellencies may be. And a man whose nose upturns can no more be expected to administer justice than a pug dog can be expected to act as a shepherd." {GA Jan 19 1921 224}
1952 "Really, our colored brothers have a great cause for rejoicing. Their race is meek and teachable, and from it comes a high percentage of the theocratic increase." {WT Feb 1 1952 95}
1953 "Vaccinations are no longer considered feeding on blood and no longer considered related to sex relations." {MSAT 48}
1961 "The blood in any person is in reality the person himself.. poisons due to personal living, eating and drinking habits .. The poisons that produce the impulse to commit suicide, murder, or steal are in the blood. Moral insanity, sexual perversions, repression, inferiority complexes, petty crimes - these often follow in the wake of blood transfusion." {WT Sep 1 1961 564}
1975 "WHY ARE YOU LOOKING FORWARD TO 1975? .. What about all this talk concerning the year 1975? Lively discussions, some based on speculation, have burst into flame during recent months among serious students of the Bible. Their interest has been kindled by the belief that 1975 will mark the end of 6,000 years of human history since Adam's creation in the fall of the year 1975, a little over seven years from now .. it will be 6,000 years since the creation of Adam." {WT Aug 15 1968 494}
1975 Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end. {KMIN May 1974 3}
1968 ".. Christian Witnesses of Jehovah .. consider all transplants between humans as cannibalism." {AWAK Jun 8 1968 21}
1972 "While both homosexuality and bestiality are disgusting perversions, in the case of neither one is the marriage tie broken" {WT Nov 1 1972 32}
1984 "Some of that 'generation [of 1914]' could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that 'the end' is much closer than that!" {WT Mar 1 1984 18-9}
1984 "Generally rapists try to get a woman in some isolated place where people are not around. At times they have a weapon and threaten to use it if the victim does not co-operate. Should a Christian quietly submit? No.. the rapist is asking a person to break God's law by committing fornication. Under such circumstances a Christian is obligated to resist. -1 Corinthians 6:18.. 'If I gave in and he raped me, I would eventually die and have no hope of a resurrection.'" {AWAK Feb 22 1984 24-7
1991 "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true." {WT Dec 1 1991 7}
1992 "Before the 1914 generation passes away, the Kingdom-preaching work will have accomplished its purpose." {WT May 1 1992 7}
So you see an honest examination of the JW past clearly shows that Jehovah was never behind such teachings. If God was not behind them then, as the facts prove conclusively, what makes you believe He is behind them now? Even you agree that blood and shunning policies (as taught and enforced today) are tough pills to swallow. And you have other disagreements as well.
And for another, it's because any thinking person can learn much from examining the history of an individual, an organization, government leader and more.
When you want to buy a house, what to the creditors do? They carefully look over your credit "HISTORY". Because they can then learn what kind of track record you have.
For me, such evaluations make sense. They are fair to do. And in the case of the WT Society such honest evaluations can reveal much that contradicts what the WT itself says about itself.
So tell us how YOU might reconcile these two opposing viewpoints then.
WT got it wrong.
WT got it wrong.
WT got it wrong.
WT is Jehovah's channel for dispensing food at this time.
WT got it wrong.
WT got it wrong
WT got it wrong.
WT CURRENTLY has it wrong.
WT CURRENTLY has it wrong.
Now, you are telling us how you believe that the JW's are perhaps the ones God is using to dispense spiritual food today.
BUT RENIAA, MOST BELIEVE YOU HAVE BEEN MISLED.
But the JW's claim to abstain from blood. Yet how then can they allow blood fractions, which comes from one thing only, BLOOD!
And why can't JW's use their own blood? Why can they use the fractions of blood donated by other people, but not their very own blood?
And if they can use fractions from the world's blood supply (often in great quantity) then why cannot they donate blood back to this same world's blood supply?
Let me ask you directly Reniaa: Would you allow either your new born baby, (which relies on you alone today), or even your own self to die, in an emergency situation, if blood could posssibly save either of your lives?
Please give me an honest, well thought out answer when you feel ready doing so.
Reniaa concludes:..."And lol I do know my thoughts would make me not exactly Good Jw material but jehovah may help me on that :)"
It's been a long day and is bedtime in Hawaii. I hope some of this helps you out.
Have a good one!
Vinny
E-mail to JW Ex-Wife: What You Can Learn Researching the WTS in 3 Hours!
by Seeker4 86 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Vinny
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catbert
Sirnose,
As regards the flood and a letter to the society:
http://www.dimaggio.org/Heretic/1st_corr.htm -
jgnat
Osarif's materials are here http://corior.blogspot.com/#alanf . Alan Feuerbacher wrote a series of articles on his study of the flood and other bible claims.
[edited to add: I found it!]
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JCanon
But wait, you might think,"The Witnesses are the only group preaching God's kingdom door to door. Doesn't that prove we're the only true religion?"
Actually, it does. Who has the TRUTH except Jehovah's witnesses? What good is preaching from door to door if you believe the Trinity? And no other organization comes close to being known as preachers besides JWs. Further, even if some locals come to your door, they are not an international region.
The context of the "good news will be preached in all the earth and then the end will come" reflects a global message. Who can come close fulfilling that but the witnesses? So they, indeed, fulfill this prophecy. But, not in the context they think. As much as the WTS is the chosen and prophesied "temple" organization that would appear at the end of the "2300 evenings and mornings" they have always been considered to be a field seeded with weeds by Satan from the very beginning. So when the first blades of grass started to appear and the organization first began to grow, the weeds in the organization were already there. Freemasonry and pyramidology and calling the leaders the "Faithful and Wise Servant" first with Russell and then that idolatrous title was transferred to the GB in general, and they still maintain that tittle which makes them charismatic leaders to the witnesses. But the Bible says, "Let the two grow TOGETHER until the harvest." Then at the time of the harvest, the weeds will be separated from the wheat. The sheep from the goats. The good fish from the worthless fish as far as the kingdom goes. Then when that happens, the organization will be abandoned.
So, indeed, JWs did fulfill the "preaching of the good news prophecy" reacing international status as a sect by the "end", that end being the end of the gentile times in 1947. So that prophecy was actually fulfilled in 1947, because that was the "end of the system of things" the Jews were focussed on, the end of the "appointed times of the nations."
But this is so COMPLEX. Trying to tell the average person that Jehovah used the witnesses even though a true-false religion on a temporary basis just is not something very comprehensible for most. You know, the concept is fundamental: too difficult to separate the wheat and weeds in the early stages or else some wheat will be lost, so wait until the very end. That applies to the WTS, but its too complex. People want an absolutely TRUE RELION or else it's false. There is little tolerance for an "imperfect" organization claiming to be the true religion.
But this is another very important issue for JWs who stay. They probably see the errors and can accept the WTS doesn't understand everything but their next questions is: WHERE IS THE TRUE RELIGION THEN? Out of all the religions they know, the WTS has the most truth. They don't believe the trinity. They have high moral standards. So why leave? All other religions have their problems also and are not perfect. So given a choice, being a witness is quite reassuring for them.
In addition, it is an especially attractive Christian religion for minorities for it is a religion that is very comfortable with and prides itself on being a melting pot of all races. So what is anyone offering in the form of an ongoing religion that can replace the WTS? What organization out there has more truth and Bible understanding than the WTS? None.
This is a tangled web, and now I realize how fortunate I am to be free of it. The Bible is absolutely true. JWs are indeed the temple organization and the prophesied preachers of the "good news", but the Bible also identifies the GB as the eventual apostate "man of lawlessness" that exists in God's own house of anointed ones, who in the end becomes apostate and corrupt, requiring Christ to remove
JC
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reniaa
Hi Vinny, I will say I am very resistant to lots of out-of-date wts being quoted at me, When I said modern eyes you have to look back in context to the time something was written i'll use one of your quotes as an example,
1972 "While both homosexuality and bestiality are disgusting perversions, in the case of neither one is the marriage tie broken" {WT Nov 1 1972 32}
This was written in 1972 wt now you tell me what was public knowledge of these two practises at the time? and how were they viewed at the time? knowledge of both these practises was limited because in 1972 they were still condemned world-wide. Are you saying wts should have had special knowledge?
If christians following God are given special knowledge on subjects like medicine, etc how come they weren't using antibiotics 2000 years ago? I think I can safely say that God has let man be originator of his own progress both medically and scientifically, and the wts has to be a tool reflecting this change and so will get it wrong the same as anyone else at that time with it's current level of technology! below example you used was 1929 for goodness sake.
1929 "Thinking people would rather have smallpox than vaccination, because the latter sows the seed of syphilis, cancers, escema, erysipelas, scrofula, consumption, even leprosy and many other loathsome affections. Hence the practice of vaccination is a crime, an outrage and a delusion." {GA May 1 1929 502}
I live in England were in recent years one doctor manage with false research to make millions of parents stop their children having a triple vaccine with a scare of autism attached. Deseases thought wiped out by the vaccines got loose again and started killing children only now are we recovering.
Wts is a man-made christian organisation based on biblical teachings and sometimes falling into the trap of allowing thoughts of men to blur biblical teachings it has that completely in common with every single religion on this planet!
We only have the bible to draw knowledge from but it isn't a science journal and we have to apply it to situations that exist now but didn't exist 2000 years ago take smoking for example I think the we can safely use bible examples to prove it a wrong practise and Jw's banned it years ago but now it is currently one of our biggest killers world-wide. JW's have to be held accountable for the the blood issue and wrong teachings that have led to deaths but the bible blood scriptures are confusing at best, I personally wouldn't know how to apply them and most christian religion don't touch them like they also avoid the future prophecy part of the bible.
If Catholics had had their way the bible would still be in latin and definitely not for the weak average John Smith to read and get wrong ideas about.
Now are the Jw's the only ones who can save us? are they the symbolic "ark" in modern times as one of the wts you quoted points out hmmm, you actually point out something that was on my mind and why I came on this site in the first place.
2 things I mention in favour of the Jws in justification for being one of them.
They use jehovah's name (brave considering they are fighting 1800 years of indoctriniation to try and pretend it doesn't exist)
No trinity - trinity is a misconception that may never have come about if jehovah's name hadn't been removed, whether it's jehovah or jahweh both are preferable to changing the word completely.
Can we be in a wrong organisation and still be saved? well I think all are wrong to some degree inc Wts but is there a good reason to stick to an organisation that follows the bible teachings as closely as they can inc the morality?
Are we the 10 slaves looking after things while the landowner is away and each one has to be accountable for how far removed from the bible they allow themselves to get?
I struggle with these questions not 'why such and such elders son got away with having premarital sex' etc
hmmm how many people as witnesses gave up smoking and were saved from lung cancer because of it? we will never know that fact!
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JCanon
The Society knows that there is no evidence for their date of 607 for the fall of Jerusalem, in fact ALL the evidence, and there is considerable, proves another date all together
ALL THE EVIDENCE? No. The VAT4956 has references to both 568 BCE and 511 BCE. That evidence alone means the Persians revised the history and that 511 BCE is the true, original date for the 37th of Nebuchadnezzar. It would be the more academically critical challenge to the Bible's chronology, not 568 BCE because the text itself essentially confirms 568 BCE is the latter, and thus revised chronology.
So the critical application here is to compare that dating with the preferred interpretation of the "70 weeks" prophecy, which shows Cyrus fulfilling that prophecy in 455 BCE. This is the conclustion of strict Biblicalists like Martin Anstey in his "Romance of Bible Chronology" who observed the Persian Period must be 82 years too long. When you date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE, add 70 years to come up with the year of the last deportation in 525 BCE, which is year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar, then guess what? Year 37 falls in 511 BCE.
So now on one side, you have a group of Biblicalists who can use the VAT4956, Josephus and the Bible to support a different timeline. 511 BCE reflects both the RELATIVE and ABSOLUTE chronology for the 455 BCE dating. Now most at this point, indeed, find the idea of 82 extra years during the Persian Period is an overwhelming reality challenge. Understood. But not if you actually investigate. When you do, the Persian Period implodes on itself immediately. You immediately learn Xerxes was Artaxerxes and Darius died in his 6th year. The Bible alone requires that from Ezra 6:14,15. That removes 51 fake years right up front. You only need to fine 31 more fake years, which are easily found in the expanded 47-year rule of Artaxerxes II, who only ruled for 17 years. Ktesias who was his physician says he served him for 17 years. In the meantime, you have Plato being consulted on a math problem in 431 BCE when he wasn't born until 428 BCE.
So, yes, 607 BCE is now a confirmed false date, but 607 BCE is based on 539 BCE for the fall of Babylon, also part of the revised timeline. So is 587 BCE for the fall of Jerusalem.
The truth shall set you free.
So while it's good to point out false teachings, you have to yourself be interested in the truth. All that is being offered here is one false teaching for another and why should someone switch? I'm not saying that for my own agenda, but as a witness who has researched this and who knows there are other issues than simply going along with the popular timeline. Others have decided the Bible contradicts this timeline at other points. I don't think we can just ignore that. Not if we are interested in understanding Bible truth.
But to get to the truth, you MUST believe the Bible 100%. 587 BCE contradicts the Bible for the fall of Jerusalem. It contradicts Josephus who inserts 70 years between the last deportation and Cyrus. So there's a problem. A historical problem for the Babylonians. A problem few take the time to look into. But when you do, actually, as I have, then the problem resolves itself and all your answers line up to prove the Bible is true.
587 BCE is just as wrong for the fall of Jerusalem as 607 BCE, but not just as wrong if you don't correct 539 BCE, in which case 607 BCE is more Biblically accurate, once removed. That is, the 70 years begins with the last deportation in year 23, not year 18, but the Bible definitely inserts those 70 years just prior to the 1st of Cyrus. There is no way around that if you want to still believe the Bible.
But you know, clearly everyone is not a scholar in these areas. It's hard to convince someone of being lied to when they trust the source. The trusted source is the academic world. All those colleges and universities and books that don't give much of a hint of any kind of comprehensive revisionism from this period, all saying the same things and doing whatever Bible bashing that is needed to maintain that false timeline. How is the lay person going to find their way through all of that?
Fact is, only the scholarly will have to. The others will simply come into the kingdom based upon their own nobility and righteousness. They are approved without needing to know the absolute details of all of this. Thus only a few people really need to know the absolute corrected truth. I would be one of them, of course.
That's why, too many would be lost if we had to correct this for everyone. The "new wine" is too potent for the old wineskins, so the new wine and old wineskins are separate. So as nice as it is to challenge 607 BCE, if it is done with 587 BCE then that contradicts the Bible, so it doesn't really help. It's just the blind leading the blind, unfortunately.
Oh well!
JC
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Seeker4
Just headed to work, no time to respond or even read what was posted in the last 12 hours or so.
But, this is the website with the WTS correspondence about the flood:
http://www.watchtowerletters.com/Home.html
Thanks for all this discussion!
S4
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reniaa
In addition, it is an especially attractive Christian religion for minorities for it is a religion that is very comfortable with and prides itself on being a melting pot of all races. So what is anyone offering in the form of an ongoing religion that can replace the WTS? What organization out there has more truth and Bible understanding than the WTS? None.
This is a tangled web, and now I realize how fortunate I am to be free of it. The Bible is absolutely true. JWs are indeed the temple organization and the prophesied preachers of the "good news", but the Bible also identifies the GB as the eventual apostate "man of lawlessness" that exists in God's own house of anointed ones, who in the end becomes apostate and corrupt, requiring Christ to remove
JC
Yes but you are defeated by your own arguements Jcanon if there isn't an alternative to Jw's were can people turn too? to there own judgement which is flawed in the same way as the WT's is because they are human too and if they are not in some form of organisation they are isolated, could they even practise any religion in that case without it being heavily influenced by whatever environment they are in?
The principle is there in the israelites living among the egyptians for 500 years, they managed by being together as a group to keep their identity even with intermarriage but despite all that they still ended soaking up many of the egyptians practises and festivals, little idols they could pretend represented Jehovah rather than the egyptian God it was made for. they would have justify them much as we do christmas and suchlike now, If a group can get effected so how much more so can one person alone?
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BONEZZ
They use jehovah's name (brave considering they are fighting 1800 years of indoctriniation to try and pretend it doesn't exist)
What makes you think His name is Jehovah? It was first coined by a Catholic monk. The WTBS has even published the fact that Yahaweh or something else is probably closer to the original pronounciation. Placing vowels in any order could be correct. So the possibility exists that instead of calling Him by a very respectful title like God or Lord we could be bastardizing His name and calling Him something that He may not even like. And if He wanted His name pronounced, don't you think He would have made it a little easier to discover the correct vowels in the correct order? No, the WTBS uses "Jehovah" because it sets them apart...like all good cults they have to prove they are inspired of God. They fail miserably on the whole God's name thing.
-BONEZZ
PS. Seeker...Great letter.
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JCanon
Another example. I have a friend who wrote the WTS several very respectful letters over a period of years with all the scientific evidence proving there could not have been a worldwide flood 4000 years ago.
Nobody has yet to fully refute the global flood because they challenge an inaccurate reference to the flood and seeing that that contradicts science decide it didn't happen.
For instance, some will note that a suspended water canopy would cause such high pressure and temperatures on the surface, life couldn't exist. But the Bible indicates that the water canopy was "firm" and thus presumably solid ICE. That makes a difference. With an ice canopy the pressure on the surface could be adjusted to whatever it needed to be. So not understanding specifically the nature of the water canopy, any objections to it based upon perhaps inaccurate concepts is just a straw man's argtument.
Another case in point is the up-in-arms obvious question as to where all that water went after the flood. It is clear the earth could not accommodate those waters in basins and seas. Yet the Bibe says to assist in removing the waters "winds" were used. "Winds"? What would winds do? It's just a lot of water right, so winds would simply blow the water from one place to the other right? Well, yeah. But a water spout falls under "winds" does it not? Isn't a tornado consisting of winds? Of course. So per the Bible, some of these "winds" could have been used as water funnels to lift the water into outer space. And we do know there is water in outer space because comets that come by close to the earth are known to be encased in ice.
So you see, two really emotional, rather slam-dunk arguments are off the table. They think they have won an anti-Biblical argument but they haven't addressed the accurate Biblical parameters of the argument. They pat themselves on the back and claim science is 100% behind this and that has been proven and it falls apart when you really get to some of the critical issues and find out how many straw men's arguments there are.
On the other hand, while researching recently about these ice cores and how they calculate age and everything at Antartica, just in passing they noted at the very bottom, under all those ice layers they found tropical vegatation! That means Antartica was once tropical. That is directly consistent with the ice canopy (green house) context of the Bible. That there was no rain at the time and apparently no seasons and thus no ice or snow at the polar regions. Once the canopy was gone then, of course, the poles froze over. Apparently Siberia was a tropical area at one time as well, with lots of mammoths frozen to death suddenly, some with undecayed food in their mouths.
Now I know Creationists vs evolutionists go back and forth on this, but that's point. There is no slam-dunk scientific proof in place that the Bible's story about a global flood isn't true. I can't get past Antartica being once a tropical place. That's scientific fact as well.
So, indeed, lots of questions remain to be answered but, please. This claim science has proven beyond any doubt and so conclusively on the flood issue is a case of "the story of my death is extremely exaggerated."
Same jive with this "mountain of evidence" for 587 BCE as the true date for the fall of Jerusalem and you can find double-dating in the VAT4956 to another timeline. Meaning? Meaning the cryptic date supersedes the current timeline and you have DIRECT PROOF not only of the reivsion but of the true dating. But is anybody jumping on that? Apparently not. The dishonesty or scholarly expertise is laking in examining the direct evidence and understanding it, as is the Biblical scholarship that mischaracterizes or inadequately characterizes the flood.
So these discussions, frankly, leaves a lot to be desired for highly intellectual and "scholarly" (meaning I go to the university and do my own research and check things out) persons like myself. So except for a few people, the masses are just fooled by one well presented counterintelligence propaganda view versus the other. The fact that you have Creationists and Evolutionists still arguing details tells you right there there is no final, absolutely convincing data to dismiss completely belief in the Bible as a true book. So you have two groups on either side of the dividing line thinking to themselves the others are blundering idiots.
But so be it, as it would also be quite clear that God never intended to show all the secrets to anyone but a few in the first place. The darkness some insist upon remaining in, is its own reward.
I am SO GLAD I'm among those who had a personal audience with God himself so I don't have to worry about whether there is a God or not or whether the Bible is true. That is truly a wonderful feeling. I, on the other hand, have tried to strongarm people into looking at more facts, more science, more archaeology that does support the Bible and it's like pulling teeth. It's clear, as some have said, "nobody is listening" but I think it's more than that. I think and have said before, that, your tapestry can be beautiful and finished and clearly you have space on a blank wall, but without those hooks in the wall you can't hang anything. You can provide all the dots but that doesn't mean everyone is able to connect them, no matter how much you try to explain it to them. So, whatever. Five out of ten virgins won't get it, so just be glad you're one of the five that do. That's all one can do.
JC