by Yadirf 56 Replies latest jw friends
Wiltshire
You have the intellect of a delinquent teenager, Wiltshire. Even you'll have to admit that. Unless you get down in the gutter with your "ass" word and "brown" word you can't think of much to say it seems to me. Is insults ALL you know? Can you prove otherwise?
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
D wiltshire; "you make many ass up tions"
Hehehehe... I like that one... of course, Friday doesn't.
Friday, I think, loves only ONE person, and that's himself... if he had one less bone in his spine, he'd never leave the house... as he could REACH...
Friday, the fact that some people are (quite justifiably, as you are a git) rude to you, doesn't invalidate the points being made.
Your god and satan are so HUMAN as to be laughable.
Your satan especially is a 3rd rate Bond villan.
So, the baddest most evil spirit can do is make a star glow brightly above the stable god's son is born in. Wow, what an orchestrated attempt on his life! It's up there with the CIA and exploding cigars. Anyone would think a small group of, what, say sheperds, possessed by evil spirits, would have been able to kill ickle baby Jesus, no problem. Maybe a demonised ass, going crazy? Oh no, that's YOU.
People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
Hi Yadirf/Friday,
Wow that was some letter you sent off to Bethel. I was especially impressed with your utilization of WT-speak, as I am sure they were as well.
Anyhow, on to the point. You said:
:. Seriously though, perhaps you would like to assume the burden of proving to the board and me that God was the source of the "star" instead of Satan. Do you feel up to that?
Hmmm. Since you are making the assertion here isn't the burden of proof *yours*? You have posted your ideas and reasoning but no proof such as you request here from another.
:Afterall if it wasn't Satan then it must have been God, right?
Could have just been the natural order of things.
:And so I'll put the same question to you as you have put to me: Where do I find such insights in the Bible? Where exactly does the Bible say that it was God himself that caused the "star"?
Frankly I do not recall that the bible says that Satan put it there either.
:I'm sure though that you will readily admit that it boils down to having to reason on the available information given in the account, since there is no specific scripture that attests that it was God that caused what the Magi observed.
Ok so we have no specific Scripture that says God put it there. Have we one that says Satan put it there?
You need to work with a fair standard. If you demand proof you should be prepared to offer the same to back up your reasoning. There is no proof on either side of this argument. You know this to be true of the God-put-it-there argument but seem to feel this is untrue of your side of the argument(though you offer only your reasoning). You want proof of opposing views and offer none of your own. How come your mere reasoning is acceptable to build your case but proof is required of those who hold the opposite view?
All for a good argument if the rules are the same for all--
Julie
Where in the BIBLE does it say that Satan made this star appear? There is ONE reference to this account in the Bible and it says that the astrologers went to Herod asking him where the king of the jews was because they saw his star when they were in the east and came to do him obeisance.
Where do you see it saying ANYTHING about Satan making this star appear? If Satan DID make it appear, don't you think that the angels would have warned them BEFORE they went to Herod? If not, why not?
Jesus said that he (Jesus) is the bright morning star. Satan can appear to be an ANGEL of light, not a STAR of light. Just as his ministers (JW's) can appear to be ministers of righteousness.
You are allowing these people to defile your conscience by giving authority to whom NO AUTHORITY IS DUE.
Again, show me IN THE BIBLE where it says that the star is from Satan.
"Presumptuousness comes before the fall and a haughty spirit before the crash."
"If your eye is simple, your whole body will be bright."
Here's a view that looks for the good. JW's are so inclined to look for bad ALL THE TIME, it's quite disgusting.
Matthew Henry Complete Commentary
on the Whole Bible
The birth of Christ was notified to the Jewish shepherds by an angel, to the Gentile philosophers by a star: to both God spoke in their own language, and in the way they were best acquainted with. Some think that the light which the shepherds saw shining round about them, the night after Christ was born, was the very same which to the wise men, who lived at such a distance, appeared as a star; but this we cannot easily admit, because the same star which they had seen in the east they saw a great while after, leading them to the house where Christ lay; it was a candle set up on purpose to guide them to Christ. The idolaters worshipped the stars as the host of heaven, especially the eastern nations, whence the planets have the names of their idol-gods; we read of a particular star they had in veneration, Amos 5:26. Thus the stars that had been misused came to be put to the right use, to lead men to Christ; the gods of the heathen became his servants. Some think this star put them in mind of Balaam’s prophecy, that a star should come out of Jacob, pointing at a sceptre, that shall rise out of Israel; see Num. 24:17. Balaam came from the mountains of the east, and was one of their wise men. Others impute their enquiry to the general expectation entertained at that time, in those eastern parts, of some great prince to appear. Tacitus, in his history ( lib. 5), takes notice of it; Pluribus persuasio inerat, antiquis sacerdotum literis contineri, eo ipso tempore fore, ut valesceret oriens, profectique Judaea rerum potirentur—A persuasion existed in the minds of many that some ancient writings of the priests contained a prediction that about that time an eastern power would prevail, and that persons proceeding from Judea would obtain dominion. Suetonius also, in the life of Vespasian, speaks of it; so that this extraordinary phenomenon was construed as pointing to that king; and we may suppose a divine impression made upon their minds, enabling them to interpret this star as a signal given by Heaven of the birth of Christ. IV. How they prosecuted this enquiry. They came from the east to Jerusalem, in further quest of this prince. Wither shall they come to enquire for the king of the Jews, but to Jerusalem, the mother-city, whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord? They might have said, "If such a prince be born, we shall hear of him shortly in our own country, and it will be time enough then to pay our homage to him.’’ But so impatient were they to be better acquainted with him, that they took a long journey on purpose to enquire after him. Note, Those who truly desire to know Christ, and find him, will not regard pains or perils in seeking after him. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord. Their question is, Where is he that is born king of the Jews? They do not ask, whether there were such a one born? (they are sure of that, and speak of it with assurance, so strongly was it set home upon their hearts); but, Where is he born? Note, Those who know something of Christ cannot but covet to know more of him. They call Christ the King of the Jews, for so the Messiah was expected to be: and he is Protector and Ruler of all the spiritual Israel, he is born a King. To this question they doubted not but to have a ready answer, and to find all Jerusalem worshipping at the feet of this new king; but they come from door to door with this question, and no man can give them any information. Note, There is more gross ignorance in the world, and in the church too, than we are aware of. Many that we think should direct us to Christ are themselves strangers to him. They ask, as the spouse of the daughters of Jerusalem, Saw ye him whom my soul loveth? But they are never the wiser. However, like the spouse, they pursue the enquiry, Where is he that is born king of the Jews? Are they asked, "Why do ye make this enquiry?’’ It is because they have seen his star in the east. Are they asked, "What business have ye with him? What have the men of the east to do with the King of the Jews?’’ They have their answer ready, We are come to worship him. They conclude he will, in process of time, be their king, and therefore they will betimes ingratiate themselves with him and with those about him. Note, Those in whose hearts the day-star is risen, to give them any thing of the knowledge of Christ, must make it their business to worship him.
BTW, yadirf, what does Numbers 24:17 mean to you?
yadirf-
perhaps you would like to assume the burden of proving to the board and me that God was the source of the "star" instead of Satan. Do you feel up to that? Afterall if it wasn't Satan then it must have been God, right? And so I'll put the same question to you as you have put to me: Where do I find such insights in the Bible?first off, kudos for responding to detective by answering a question with a question. this is a typical tactic of someone whos argument has not a leg to stand on (very typical tactic of jws).
i feel up to proving god put the star there, and not satan. would you like me to quote genesis, the creation of all things? clearly god created the universe, surely you concede that the bible backs this up, no? thus god created all the stars, and placed them where he wished. where in the bible does it EVER speak of satan creating or moving stars? your argument is hogwash.
i love the way you disguised your post as a fake letter to the society, very nice.
aa
Siegswife
Where in the BIBLE does it say that Satan made this star appear?
Logic and reason say so.
If Satan DID make it appear, don't you think that the angels would have warned them BEFORE they went to Herod?
But where in the BIBLE does it say that if Satan DID make the star appear that the angels would surely have warned the Magi before they went to Herod? Aren’t you having to resort to logic and reasoning in order to assume such a thing. Then how is it that you wish to rule out logic and reasoning when it comes down to considering whether or not Satan was the author of the star (as indicated by your question in the first quote directly up above). Is it that if such a thing could indeed be established that it would play havoc with your precious Christmas holiday? That would be quite devastating to you, wouldn’t it?
Jesus said that he (Jesus) is the bright morning star. Satan can appear to be an ANGEL of light, not a STAR of light.
Whoops, there you’ve already been found guilty of using reasoning and logic again. Now which way is it going to be, Is the use of logic and reason going to be allowed, or disallowed? You can’t have it both ways, to be consistent.
Just as his ministers (JW's) can appear to be ministers of righteousness.
The fact of the matter is that JWs are the only ones that truly take Jesus’ command at Matthew 28:19, 20 seriously. Does the “pastor” of you church stress the importance of each member consider it a personal obligation to go make disciples in obedience to Jesus’ command? Or do they merely keep the pew warm and feed the kitty when it’s passed in front of them? Now be honest!
You are allowing these people to defile your conscience by giving authority to whom NO AUTHORITY IS DUE.
Listen Mrs. Sieg, I’m undoubtedly old enough to be your father … so it’s not as if I haven’t been around the block a time or two. I’ve considered both sides of this issue a sufficient number of times to know the score. I do know that wanting to know what’s true has to be the thing of most importance in a person’s heart if one is to arrive at the truth of a matter. (Proverbs 2:4, 5) Furthermore, the ones you point the finger at have no “authority” in the way that you imply. Jehovah’s Witnesses have no leader except Jesus Christ. The entire congregation is made up of brothers and sisters, and that includes those who bear the responsibilities of Governing Body members. You’re simply full of hot air! Yes, there is oversight … which is a Biblical thing.
Again, show me IN THE BIBLE where it says that the star is from Satan.
"Presumptuousness comes before the fall and a haughty spirit before the crash."
I’ve produced several times more to support my position than what you or anyone else have to support yours. But like I’ve already asked: Is using logic and reasoning in, or out? If with you it’s in, then what fault can you find with my reasoning? Perhaps you would do well to meditate further on what’s been said, as well as click on the link and review the 4 or 5 pages of discussion there. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=8504&site=3
Here's a view that looks for the good. JW's are so inclined to look for bad ALL THE TIME, it's quite disgusting.
No, that’s not true at all. It’s just that they intend to find favor with God, the Source of life, and aren’t careless in that regard like Christendom is. Yes, we are very interested in knowing whether or not something is bad. To not be so concerned would be very, very foolish. What your problem really is, it seems to me, is that the narrow road doesn’t suit you. It’s more important for you that you be able to engage in all the pleasures that can possibly be stuffed into a 365-day year, rather than concern yourself with the realities of life … that more than anything else what mankind needs the most is LIFE. BTW, when’s the last time that you reviewed the obituary column? Was it empty? No, instead it was filled with listings of the deceased … those who didn’t make it past the stage of infancy. There are some that died in their 30’s. Most often the daily list is comprised of ones who saw around 70 to 75 years of life.
As to your quote regarding what Matthew Henry had to say, I will make a few comments.
the same star which they had seen in the east they saw a great while after, leading them to the house where Christ lay(Don’t take me wrong about what I will say about Matthew’s reasoning, as if I don’t respect the man … because I most certainly do. This man must have devoted most of his life to the consideration of what the Bible had to say. I happen to have his commentaries in my possession, and have consulted with them many, many times.)
Mistake number one! The star did NOT “lead” the Magi to the house where Jesus lived. The Magi were SENT to Bethlehem by King Herod. They did NOT follow behind the star, as commonly thought. When they got to Bethlehem they saw the star for the second time, up above the house that Jesus lived in. I will hand it to MH for his implying here that the Magi had only a brief encounter with the star when they initially saw it. Most people have the impression that they maintained contact with it all the way up to their arrival in Jerusalem.
it was a candle set up on purpose to guide them to ChristMistake number two! No, it was a light specifically produced to guide them to Herod … so that he would be tipped off on the fact that a supposed rival to his throne had been born. Note should be taken of the fact that there was ALTERNATE route available that would have taken the Magi to Bethlehem without going through Jerusalem (where Herod lived), as proven by the fact that the they used it on their returning to their country. If the "star" had of been God's doing then he surely would've taken them via the route that would have avoided all contact with Herod, and thus avoided the deaths of all the children that Herod caused to be killed. You might as well get used to the fact that to attribute the star to God is most unreasonable.
Thus the stars that had been misused came to be put to the right use, to lead men to ChristSo says our friend Matthew Henry! No doubt a sincere Bible commentator, but in the dark regarding many points nonetheless. No surprise, considering the age he lived in. Even today there is so great a darkness when it comes to understanding the Bible. Do you read anywhere in MH’s comments where he even considered the possibility that the star had and evil source. No, the thought apparently hadn’t ever crossed his mind … even as it hadn’t everyone else’s. Regarding the commentators is his day, much like even today, it’s as if they all copy off of one another.
Note, Those who truly desire to know Christ, and find him, will not regard pains or perils in seeking after him.Truer words were never spoken!
Note, There is more gross ignorance in the world, and in the church too, than we are aware of. Many that we think should direct us to Christ are themselves strangers to him.Matthew Henry certainly knew what he was talking about here! His words are every bit as meaningful today as they were when he penned them.
We are come to worship him.Mistake number three! The Magi weren’t in pursuit of the Messiah, they were looking for a “king”. Therefore they weren’t there to “worship” Jesus. Obviously the word rendered as “worship” is a mistranslation and a therefore a misrepresentation of the facts. Please use your mind, and stop being influenced by the ideas that have been put into your head since you were a child.
They [the Magi] conclude he will, in process of time, be their kingMistake number four! Nothing could be farther from the truth. They plainly asked, “Where is the one born king of the JEWS?”
BTW, yadirf, what does Numbers 24:17 mean to you?You mean, by the use of logic and reason, What does Numbers 24:17 mean to me? Isn’t that what you’re asking. Because how otherwise can it be understood! So, once again I ask you: Which way is it going to be, Is the use of logic and reason going to be allowed, or disallowed? You can’t have it both ways, to be consistent. If, on the other hand you think that particular scripture is so explicit … in such a way that L&R isn’t required, then perhaps you can explain to me its meaning.
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
Dubla
i feel up to proving god put the star there, and not satan.Go for it!
where in the bible does it EVER speak of satan creating or moving stars? your argument is hogwash.That base has already been covered within the pages of the following topic: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=8504&site=3 If you’re really interested in the answer to your ridiculous question then surely you won’t mind taking the time to look for it there.
i love the way you disguised your post as a fake letter to the society, very nice.The letter was not a fake. Upon what basis do you assume such a thing? Am I a liar, simply because you charge me with such? Haven’t you any more of an ability to reason that that?
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
The board may note that yadirF, in his usual fashion has ignored a point that dubla has made on this thread pertaining to the topic at hand.
For all you scorekeepers out there:
yadirF responded to roughly 38% of dubla's previous post (That's 250 out of 657 bytes).
Let's have a clean game fellas.
yadirf-
Go for it!i already did. would you like me to quote genesis, or are we conceding that god created all things?
That base has already been covered within the pages of the following topic: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=8504&site=3 If you’re really interested in the answer to your ridiculous question then surely you won’t mind taking the time to look for it there.my question was no more ridiculous than the answer you gave. you provided a link to a thread, in which you gave zero proof or backing for this idea of yours (or the societys, same thing), scripturally or otherwise. the "base" you covered in that thread proved nothing save the fact that your "reasoning" is your only backing for this entire argument. proof in point:
It only stands to reason that Satan was the source of the Bethlehem Star, so-called.
As I’ve already called attention to, the “star” obviously wasn’t a real star like the stars that comprise the galaxies.you use words like "obviously", attempting to claim victory with each post; you are truly amusing. the only thing that you showed was "obvious", is that you have no proof to back up any of your theories (note: the wtbts materials do not count as proof). while your guess that the star was not actually a star may be interesting, it is nothing more than that: a guess. the scriptural wording does seem to imply without a doubt that the star was an actual thing, not the imaginary object you claim it to be.
in that thread you provided, i also found this logic to be extremely flawed:
Their following that star resulted in the slaughter of all the male infants in Bethlehem … it’s therefore absurd -- ABSOSUTELY ABSURD -- to attribute the star to God. God would have foreseen the tragedy......its interesting to me that "god would have foreseen" events whenever its convenient to the jw side of the argument, yet other times god supposedly chooses not to "forsee". is there any pattern to it, or reason behind the occassions which god chooses to "forsee" and when he chooses not to "forsee"? for example, if god "would have foreseen the tragedy" that follows his actions, such as providing this star to follow, would god not have also "foreseen the tragedy" of millions of people dying as a result of his creation of satan?
The letter was not a fake. Upon what basis do you assume such a thing? Am I a liar, simply because you charge me with such? Haven’t you any more of an ability to reason that that?are you a liar simply becuase i charge you as such? i dont know, perhaps you are, perhaps not. i wont lose any sleep over it. what basis do i assume the letter is fake? it just seemed phony to me, i have no real basis. it didnt stand to reason that a person such as yourself would actually take the time to commend the society with a letter of praise on the "star" issue. it would make much more sense that you would fabricate such a letter in an obvious attempt at re-hashing an old argument with your friends here on the apostate network. but who knows? and who really cares? lol, maybe you did send the letter to the society, and maybe they got a nice belly laugh out of it.
aa
