by Lady Zombie 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
"The point is that if there is no God, then what is the point of our existence? To enjoy our time here on earth for the brief while we are here? Seems rather pointless doesn't it? "
this assumes that theres a relationship between god and our existence. but what if there is not? and whats wrong with enjoying our time on earth? wether you believe on a god or not, it is still sensible.
The point is that if there is no God, then what is the point of our existence? To enjoy our time here on earth for the brief while we are here? Seems rather pointless doesn't it? "
How about the Jewish concept of eternity, to live on through your legacy of good works and good children?
very good zombie....you just keep thinkin real real hard like that....over and over on these subjects.....i will come visit you in your rubber room and loosen your restraints a bit.........oompa
Slappy (at least I think that's the name you picked, I can't look at it now that I've started responding),
A lot of good points have been made already. But I'd like to respond to your notion that the existence of a particular God gives your life meaning. It doesn't. Unless you are willing to claim to have had a mystical experience that gave you access to anything outside your self (id est, God invaded your life, possessed you, and imposed his meaning upon you), you are stuck inside your body and can only know what is mediated by your senses and reasoned out by your brain. Meaning cannot, therefore, come from outside. If you want your life to have meaning, you must generate it yourself. And, if you examine the way you are using your notion of "God", I think you will find that that's just what you're doing. God does not give your life meaning, you give your life meaning, in part by the way you use your notion of God. That's fine. It's just not for me. However, I can assure you the odds are that almost everyone here has read Romans 14. In fact, most of us have read it several times over.
Welcome to the forum, by the way. I think it's great you are willing to engage in dialog with people who have perspectives which differ from your own.
Actually, it's my understanding that those "pointless" things that you mentioned [blkblk13] were created for our enjoyment? Do you deny that you enjoy those things that God created? Makes sense does it not? If that is the case, who's enjoyment were we created for? Oh wait, we weren't created, we just "popped" into existence and slowly evolved to where we are now. We evolved from animals who have no reasoning ability or awareness of their finite lives [I believe that's what another poster said] to humans with a splendid ability to reason and logically think our way into and out of anything we do or don't want to believe. So when did this ability enter the timeline of evolution? (I hope I'm not making a false assumption here...If there is no God, then all this is here because of some cosmic occurence...right? At least I'm not aware of any other explanation; forgive my ignorance if there is.)
And if this is how things have come about, then we are here to live however long we do, enjoy our life, then die? That's a really good rationalization for people who don't want the restrictions that they feel God places on our lives if we live for Him. This way you can do whatever you want and you don't have to answer to anybody. As for the Jewish concept, jgnat, do you honestly think that after you die you are going to care whether or not you are "living on" in someone else's memory? Or that your wonderful children are carrying on your legacy? Will it help you sleep better in your grave? Not so much tossing and turning perhaps?
It's not that I need God to make my life have meaning, it's just that that is what makes the most sense to me. Please give me reasons (note the plural) for things that you will do in your lifetime that will actually matter once you're dead. Now it's easy to say that such-and-such will mean something to you while you are alive, but when you're no longer alive? Unless of course you argue that after our time here, that is all there is, there is no "after-life" in any way, shape, or form. Then again, that circles back to the question I've been asking. Sure, you generated some kind of meaning in your life by using your great reasoning abilities and you had an absolute blast for all those years you were alive. So what? Let's go ask a corpse if they're satisfied with everything they accomplished in life.
And veradico, (thx for the welcome btw, i'll try not to wear it out too quick ), your comment about meaning cannot "come from outside" is slightly flawed. If there is nothing outside us, then we are unable generate meaning within ourselves because we have nothing with which to base anything off of. Unless, of course, you have a very very active imagination...and I think those people are referred to as insane.
Ok, back to the original point brought up by Lady Zombie. I've heard similar arguments against the existence of God based on the entire "if God is love (as the Bible says), then there shouldn't be suffering (etc.), therefore the Bible isn't true and there is no God" This follows all rules of logical thinking and would be tough to refute...'cept for one small detail. You've made a false premise. It is true that God is Love, however, (and JWs never mention this because it would throw their beliefs out the window) God is also Holy and Righteous. I could explain why that makes a difference, but with your superior thinking abilities I'm sure you can figure it out.
As for the the "free-will" argument, I'm having a very hard time piecing that together in any sort of way that will make sense, but then again, I believe in God, so maybe my thinking prowess isn't up to par . (Also, it seems that a lot of your arguments are based off JW version of things.) So if we have free-will, why can't God be omnipotent? It's my understanding that God gave us free-will in order that we will make the conscious decision to come to Him of our own accord. He doesn't want to force us to be His, otherwise that would be slavery, and that goes against His nature. For if we come to Him of our own accord, it means so much more to Him, because our love was given freely, just as His was. God is omniscient, that means He knows what we are going to do before we do it. That doesn't mean that He's making us do those things (a lot of people make that assumption and therefore assume that there is no free-will, and that if there is no free-will then God isn't what the Bible says He is). It just means that He knows what's going to happen. Romans 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow..." Unless foreknow means something else...?
So again I will say this, read the Bible first and then form your arguments instead of basing your arguments off of the teachings of men. As humans we are very capable of making honest mistakes and some very not-so-honest mistakes. I can assure you that Lady Zombie hasn't read the Bible in full because a lot of her arguments are based off JWs or other religions, which, if she had read the Bible, she would know that more than a few of those teachings are off base.
bk
I can assure you that Lady Zombie hasn't read the Bible in full because a lot of her arguments are based off JWs or other religions, which, if she had read the Bible, she would know that more than a few of those teachings are off base.bk
I have read the bible. Twice.
Again I wasn't trying to pick a fight with theists. Well, ok, maybe with the JWs a little but only because they claim they're the only ones to "have the truth" and are self-appointed experts.
If believing in god works for you, great. Doesn't work for me. It didn't in the past when I was a theist (hence the cognitive dissonance) and it sure doesn't work now.
Simon:
"Either way, it's not worthy of worship."
Why not?
It's my understanding that God gave us free-will in order that we will make the conscious decision to come to Him of our own accord. He doesn't want to force us to be His, otherwise that would be slavery, and that goes against His nature.
its also my understanding that this so called god given freekwill might be an illusion. whats the point in giving free will but making laws to constrain it and killing all those who will not adhere? free will is the cause of billions of death . and who gave it? god is still responsible for it. it would be better if we were just given programs to follow him instinctly, if this notion of god given free will is true.
And if this is how things have come about, then we are here to live however long we do, enjoy our life, then die? That's a really good rationalization for people who don't want the restrictions that they feel God places on our lives if we live for Him. This way you can do whatever you want and you don't have to answer to anybody. As for the Jewish concept, jgnat, do you honestly think that after you die you are going to care whether or not you are "living on" in someone else's memory? Or that your wonderful children are carrying on your legacy? Will it help you sleep better in your grave? Not so much tossing and turning perhaps?
It's not that I need God to make my life have meaning, it's just that that is what makes the most sense to me. Please give me reasons (note the plural) for things that you will do in your lifetime that will actually matter once you're dead. Now it's easy to say that such-and-such will mean something to you while you are alive, but when you're no longer alive? Unless of course you argue that after our time here, that is all there is, there is no "after-life" in any way, shape, or form. Then again, that circles back to the question I've been asking. Sure, you generated some kind of meaning in your life by using your great reasoning abilities and you had an absolute blast for all those years you were alive. So what? Let's go ask a corpse if they're satisfied with everything they accomplished in life.
-Sounds like something I would say, 15 - 20 years ago. The Watchtower uses this kind of reasoning all the time: "If this is all there is, where's the point in that? What bigger meaning is there in that? Wouldn't you rather believe you'll live on in warm, furry fuzzyland, skipping about with penguins and lions?" While this is a line of reasoning that is appealing and may seem logical at first, it has no bearing on reality. What I mean is that if reality is that we have come to be with no 'help' from any kind of deity, and there's no afterlife, then that's all reality is. We can say that it's unfair, lacking meaning, not being... 'cozy enough' for our liking... It doesn't matter - not being happy with it won't change reality. It is what it is. Wishing it were otherwise is not an argument.
There are quite a few things I can do in this lifetime that will be beneficial to people who live after me, but of course nothing I do now will mean anything to me personally once I'm dead; that goes without saying, and is only an 'argument' appealing to emotion. I may want a longer/eternal life (I actually do), but then again I may want a million dollars. Reality is I'm very unlikely to ever get my hands on a million dollars. "What about all the things I could buy with that million? Is this all there is? Are you saying I can't buy anything beyond what I can currently afford? No! I refuse to accept it!" Well - refusing to accept it wouldn't put money on my bank account, unfortunately.
As for other points, first you may want to gaze slightly upward to the topic heading of this thread, which says "I've yet to meet a JW who can explain this". This is predominantly an ex-JW forum, and many of the replies and questions here are posed with that in mind, and for active JWs to read (they sometimes lurk and even register), or others who have been JWs or are thinking of becoming JWs. That's why many arguments will have a JW slant to them when it comes to the Bible.
Don't let that fool you into thinking people here haven't researched the Bible, though. I dare say the process of exiting the Witnesses often include quite an extensive Bible study for most, although that study may not always be along the lines of apologetics.
God is omniscient, that means He knows what we are going to do before we do it. That doesn't mean that He's making us do those things (a lot of people make that assumption and therefore assume that there is no free-will, and that if there is no free-will then God isn't what the Bible says He is). It just means that He knows what's going to happen.
If God knows what will happen thousands of years in advance (hence prophecy), that means our actions are predestined. And since we're not the ones predestining them (we don't have that kind of power), someone else would be the one... Who might that be?
Not that I believe God is doing it; this is not an attack on God, but the concept of (a certain) God.
As for meaning and purpose and ethics in life without God, there have been many discussions on this forums along those lines. I propose that while we read the Bible, you should read those threads.
Sorry, my bad. Your constant reference to JW beliefs and interpretations of the Bible threw me off. But again, if you have read the Bible, and have honestly tried to understand what it's saying (not the easiest thing to do, i'll admit that), then you would have known that God is Holy and Righteous as well as Love, and that when you take all three together, things make more sense than when you take Love by itself. And a lot of the arguments you made have been answered in the Bible. Again, it's not the easiest thing to ascertain, but they are in there, it just takes some digging. (Not talking about interpreting things to suit what you believe--aka. JWs--but to truly understand what God would have us to understand.)
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Matthew 11:25
Maybe you should ask yourself why you don't believe. I know that one reason is that, through logic (flawed or otherwise), things don't add up. However, that's a "sympton" and not a "cause". There is another reason for you not wanting to believe, and the "logic" thing has become the excuse for not believing.
And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words...Rooted and built up in him [Christ], and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:4, 7 & 8
I know that my friends, while not denying the existence of God, have put Him as far away from their minds as possible. This is because they feel that God condemns them for many of the things that they do, and life is just a lot easier and more enjoyable without God in there complicating things. (False perception btw. I used to be right there with them, and while I won't deny that I enjoyed it, I am much happier and content with my life now that I have been studying and researching God's Word. I am infinitely more at peace also.)
I also have known professors that have denied the existence of God because they have been convinced of their own superiority and the thought that there might be something greater out there is just something they cannot live with. (Pride is a killer, and was the reason for Lucifer's downfall, which I think is why God hates pride sooooo much. So God didn't create evil, but the ability for it exist was there and as a result of free-will we have the option of choosing one or the other. By the way, read Ezekiel 28, I find it eerily representational of the downfall of Satan.)
I'm not saying that this is why you don't believe, I'm just giving some examples of people I've known who have held similar beliefs. There are many many other "reasons" out there, and I'm sure you know of a few that I don't.
Lol, it's funny you bring up that JWs think they are the only one's with the truth. I have a non-denominational background, and they thought they were the only place with the truth. This "mindset" has never set well with me. I feel that it doesn't convey the true Spirit of Christ and we are only humans, so how can we say for sure what is and what isn't? We can't! That's why I don't want people to be basing their impression of God and His Word off of what "religions" say or do. That is why I am all for searching for the answers yourself from within God's Word. I have spent the last 18 months or so, trying to put together a thesis of sorts to refute the entire "one-place" thing that most if not all religions hold. Anyway, that's more than a little off-topic, so I'll leave well enough alone.
bk
