by Lady Zombie 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Lady Zombie,
Love your post. I used to think about those same facts even while I was in the borg. Didn't integrate those facts while in the borg because of the integration blockers known as jw cult mind control tactics.
When I became free of the wt integration blocking tactics, the answers came in a flash.
I agree with your conclusions.
Worf
What nobody knows is how the two ends of each one of these ropes meet in the middle :
the first one : omniscient god on one side, man's freedom on the other
the second one : loving god on one side, man's misery on the other
And still the believer (I for one) wants to believe in the validity of each single end. No real alternative choice apart from absurd life
Slappy: I think the "question" was retorical. She is just pointing out the ridiculousness of God and the Genesis account in a "tounge and cheek" manner.
Lady Zombie: great logic!
changeling :)
To have an ability and choose never to use it, is effectively the same as having no ability at all.
Unless you believe I have the ability to conjure bratwursts from thin air, I just choose never to use it.
"What does God need with a starship?"
In my opinion, the whole concept of [man's] "free will" is one huge red herring; it's irrelevant to the central issue of theodicy.
The truth is, God's lovely "creation" is, and always has been, a hideously violent and chaotic bloodbath. To use a metaphor, contemplating "creation" is like watching an eternal horror film. Just think of the chaotic violence and suffering that transpired before humans came on the scene. I'm not a member of P.E.T.A., but it is universally accepted knowledge that virtually all animals suffer. In their natural state, they endure horrifically violent and fear-filled lives. And yet, would any reasonable person assert that animals have, or have ever had, any capacity that even approaches "free will"?
It can be argued that there is one thing that animals have that makes their existence more tolerable than that of humans; animals posses a wonderful lack of awareness in regard to their finitude or mortality. Simply stated, animals are unaware that they will die, while humans possess self-awareness and are fully cognizant of their own mortality. I believe that it is precisely this awareness - and only this awareness - which is at the foundation of all religion. There is no other compelling basis for religion. Fear of death is the very raisond'etre of all religion. Because animals are not aware of their own mortality, they have no religion. If they did possess such an awareness, then they would also concoct and fabricate religious systems, just as humans have done so.
I view "creation" as being more chaos than cosmos. There is far more disorder in the so-called "orderly" creation than many people are willing to concede. On planet Earth, life "feeds on" life; on nearly all levels, organisms depend on the death of other organisms for life. This a universal "rule" that was established preceding - and utterly independent of - the arrival of humans on the scene. That is why I reiterate that the whole idea of "free will" is totally irrelevant to theodicy. Basically, "creation" was hopelessly and irredeemably flawed even in "pre-lapsarian" days, even before humans suffered their "fall." Creation was full of violence, bloodshed, and suffering long before humans walked the Earth.
One question that I have found useful to ask myself and others is this "In 80 yrs (give or take a few) does all of this really matter?" The point is that if there is no God, then what is the point of our existence? To enjoy our time here on earth for the brief while we are here? Seems rather pointless doesn't it?
Yes, pointless like a flower, pointless like a bee, pointless like tree, pointless like a pet dog that isn't going to live forever and isn't going to "move on to the next level". Pretty much all creation on this planet has an expiration date and was created that way intentionally by your God. I'm sure he appreciates you calling his creative works pointless. Maybe he thinks ur pointless 2.
Sorry if that was a little scathing, but it's so frustrating when people ask all these questions and won't bother searching for the answers themselves. Since nobody is able to give them a "satisfactory" answer, they feel justified in their belief that God doesn't exist or that He isn't who the Bible says He is. Granted, the questions you ask have merit, but I think it has to do more with the spirit in which you ask them.
I ask these questions and debate them because theists and/or religious people ask/demand me to believe in something and exercise faith for a concept that just doesn't make any sense to me. Therefore, if I'm going to get on board and believe in a god, I feel that they should be able to convince me. And I spent a great deal of my life searching for the answers myself. Guess what conclusion I came to.
I don't go around picking fights with theists. I was one for a long time so I understand how they feel, however the cognitive dissonance that a belief in god was causing in me was a source of a lot of mental turmoil. Which incidently disappeared once I overcame my fear of the Eye In The Sky and accepted the evidence (or lack thereof) that he isn't real.
To have an ability and choose never to use it, is effectively the same as having no ability at all.
Unless you believe I have the ability to conjure bratwursts from thin air, I just choose never to use it.
I'd like a bratwurst with spicy brown mustard please.
simon:
Because if he does exist (which I don't believe) then he's a cruel, evil being who likes to create creatures and sit back to watch them suffer.
agreed...
here is my take on the whole free will vs omniscience debate.... the best chess players in the world can think many moves ahead (though how that is done is up for debate)...the chessmasters/experts I have known think in groups of moves, or gambits, themes, etc..not individual moves....... they know that certain moves precipitate a chain reaction of moves that they can exploit, especially if playing a novice...a novice, on the other hand, is limited in their ability to combine these groups of moves to "think ahead"...
with a supposed ominiscient god... god has an ability to think in a way that is unlimited...able to process an infinite number of combinations of possibilities based on the outcome of the previous moves.... where a person might think 100 moves ahead and "foresee" all the possible outcomes....and a computer can "foresee" thousands or millions and in a short time...."god" supposedly has unlimited processing capacity..and could "foresee" every single possible outcome, no matter the combination of events ..... thus, everything in life is already preordained....based on a finite (albeit a mathematical number incomprehensible to humans, who cannot even find the end of pi) number of combinations.....its just that us humans only see such a small slice of those possibilities, that it seems to us that we have free will...when really we dont...we just operate within broadly (to us) defined parameters.
or then again...we have free will and god doesnt exist..at least not one that is bothering with us...
ok..i am done with my alcohol influenced theologic logic rant for tonight... 'gnight....
Snakes ()
