You know, I've yet to meet a JW who can explain this

by Lady Zombie 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • reneeisorym
    reneeisorym

    You are absolutely right in all of your conclusions. The free will theory can't be.

    I wrote this a little while back with the help of books -- I'm not claiming the thoughts to be my own at all ....

    It also must be said that the Bible says that God is the author of both Evil and Good -- What makes Him good is that the evil he ordains will result in good. It's like if you let your daughter learn to ride a bike. It's bad that she will probably fall off but the greater good is that she will learn to ride the bike.

    Why does Suffering and Evil Exist?

    Is it possible that God just knows better than us? If God is truly God, isn’t it true that He would know better than we do? A God that doesn’t know more than we do is hardly worth believing in. So is it at least a possibility that God knows the long-term benefits of suffering will be beneficial to us somehow?

    The older I get, the more I understand that I don’t know it all. In fact, I’ve discovered that I can’t predict the future very well. Sometimes I can predict the consequences of my actions, but when it comes to pain, I often lack the ability to see how it will ever benefit me. Perhaps it is hard for us to predict good coming from pain because our pain blinds us. We would never choose pain, so maybe God has to choose it for our own good sometimes.

    Think about our dealings with our own children. We are much more wise than our children. Wouldn’t God’s intelligence be even greater than the difference between our children and us? Consider this: Sometimes we may decide not to help our children out of a bind for their own good. They may be struggling with their homework but we decide to allow them to struggle on their own so they can learn independence. A friend of mine told me about a great example of this. Her parents kicked her brother out of the house because he was doing drugs in their home after being warned. They did not want to enable him further and decided that making him find his own way was the only way to help. Again, isn’t it possible that God knows more than we do and is allowing us to suffer for the greater good?

    We have a superb example of evil being used for good in the death of Christ. I am sure that the devil thought he had won when Jesus was nailed to a cross. Satan began to attempt an attack on God by hurting His people. Satan thought he had persecuted God’s own prophets. Then he orchestrated the persecution and crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Instead, a great thing happened. Even the disciples had a hard time understanding how this could be good, but God’s good purposes were accomplished. The way to heaven was opened up to humans by the sacrifice of Jesus.

    I read this quote from Lee Strobel’s “Case for Faith”: “Let’s face it: we learn from the mistakes we make and the suffering they bring. The universe is a soul – making machine, and part of the process is learning, maturing, and growing through difficult and challenging and painful experiences. The point of our lives in this world isn’t comfort, but training and preparation for eternity. Scripture tells us that even Jesus ‘learned obedience through suffering’ –and if that was true for him, why wouldn’t it even be more true for us?”

    Are children who are given every comfort of life at a moment’s notice better for it? Aren’t most people thankful for a difficult upbringing? My boss often tells me about a certain spoiled young man, “If money can do that to a person, I’m glad I grew up poor.” What would be become if we had every comfort given to us when on earth? Would we be spoiled brats?

    Imgaine a world without evil. Every time God would take away evil, he would limit freedom. We would loose the ability to choose God and love. How would we feel when we got to heaven? “Oh I can have everything I want here? I could have that on earth.”

    So why doesn’t God stop at least some of the pain? Maybe he is limiting suffering. But even still, that is a problematic question. Where would we draw the line? Is it ok to believe in God if he only allows a man to suffer for 3 years instead of 4? I trust that God in his infinite wisdom is allowing to happen what needs to happen for His good purposes.

    Let’s consider some possible benefits to suffering. One is that it leads to repentance. Only after suffering did Isreal turn to God. Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. … I have not called the righteous but the sinners.” So why do we continue in pain even after we have received eternal life? We must remember that we are still not “good” even after accepting Christ. Isaiah says, “all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags.” Each time my life is going well, I drift away from talking to God. When times are hard, God fills me with His love. When times are hard, I reach out and beg for God’s hand on me. I am thankful for hard times so I can feel God in my life again.

    A friend of mine visited a poor small town in Nicaragua. She was amazed at how happy they were. People who work with the handicapped often become so blessed by the spirits of their clients. I feel blessed through my own story of pain; I was a wife to an abusive husband for five years.

    Scottish theologian James S. Stewart said, “It is the spectators, the people who are outside, looking at the tragedy, from whose ranks the skeptics come; it is not those who are actually in the arena and who know suffering from the inside. Indeed, the fact is that it is the world’s greatest sufferers who have produced the most shining examples of unconquerable faith.” Some day we will thank God for all the suffering we have endured. Our time on earth will seem but a moment compared to eternity in heaven.

    Besides, who says suffering is evil if you don’t believe in God? Who says what is good and what is evil? If there is no God to set a moral standard, your feeling of right and wrong is nothing more than a feeling. It is not written anywhere what constitutes morality. If you don’t believe in God, suffering is subjective. Getting rid of your belief of God doesn’t help you deal with the problem of evil and suffering. I suspect that such philosophy does answer this question satisfactorily to many who have experienced suffering and are in search of answers.

    Contrary to the sermons by many famous TV evangelists, God does not promise a life without suffering. He promises a life of suffering. Instead what he promises is to walk with us through it. In Daniel chapter 3 three men are thrown into the fiery furnace as punishment for not bowing to a false god. Then Nebuchadnezzar sees four men in the furnace and the forth looks like a son of God. Who was the forth person? Isaiah gives us a promise: “Fear not, I have redeemed you. When you pass through the waters, I will be there. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned. Neither shall the fire kindle upon you.” WHEN you experience suffering, you will feel Him walking with you. The suffering will give you splendor and faith. That is the promise.

    I’ve heard people say before, “God made a perfect world and we are the ones who messed it up.” I reject the idea that God sat back and blamed all the evil on us because we couldn’t love a God who didn’t care. But God didn’t just sit back; he took all the sins of the world on him at the cross. Not until you get into heaven will you know how far God went to be with us in our affliction. Christ bore all of our sins for our behalf.

    Christ knows our suffering. The Jews went to concentration camps you say? Jesus has been beaten and hung. Have you lost a child? God lost His only son. Have you felt alone and abandoned? Jesus called out, “Why have you forsaken me?”

    It just can’t be that God doesn’t love us. We may not understand the answer of why He allows suffering, but we know He loves us because He suffered for us. That is how you know He is with you through suffering and there is a loving God who cares.

  • DoomVoyager
    DoomVoyager

    I've never met ANYBODY who could explain this.

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Slappy, you're like a breath of fresh air after being confined for hours in a stale room!

    The WT has so screwed with the minds and hearts of most on here that it's almost impossible to speak freely about the Bible.

    They're going to have to face the Judge of the whole earth for misrepresenting Him, and I, for one, wouldn't like to be in their shoes.

    Lady Zombie, there is no one, JW or otherwise, who can answer that question. Yet, the fact that most - if not all - persons have wondered about the very same thing leads me to believe that it will be answered.

    I have faith in the God of the Bible, not in man. That's why I was able to leave the JW's with my faith still intact.

    Sylvia

  • Lady Zombie
    Lady Zombie

    Everyone is born atheist, or without a concept of god, if the term atheist bothers you.

    The concept and belief in god must be taught.

    So, if there is a god, especially one who wants constant praise and devotion, wouldn't a belief in god be hardwired into the brain much like a stimulus-response mechanism?

    I'm hungry = I'll eat food

    I'm cold = I must get warm

    There is a god = I must worship

  • S3RAPH1M
    S3RAPH1M

    It's threads like this that make me thank God for deism.

  • Slappy
    Slappy

    The logic is there, but again, I think it's flawed. Your first two examples, about hunger and cold, are instincts, and even animals have them. Can you group the need to worship God in with those? I think not, they're too different. Also, if we were "hardwired" as you say, to worship God, then what do we need His Word for? However, if we aren't "hardwired" (which we're obviously not) then there is a need for God's Word to teach us and bring us to Him. So you are right, we do need to be taught about God. Is that a bad thing? We also need to be taught math, reading, science, geography, etc..., in order for us to succeed and survive in this life. Saying that we are all born atheists is one way to say that. Of course, we're also all born bereft of coherent speech or much of anything else for that matter, so are we also born dumb?

    Back to the free-will issue...If God had "hardwired" this need to worship Him, then I don't think we could come to Him of our own free-will. However, as has been mentioned several times, the free-will issue is a difficult one at best. There are people from my non-denominational background that believe one way and some another way. It's all how one applies God's Word to their reasoning. It is a very controversial topic in some circles, and has led to more divisions than I care to reflect upon.

    Not to harp on this, but this is the reason why I urge people to not just read the Bible, but to study it. It's not like you're going to find a verse that says exactly the way things are, just like you can't form a complete opinion of somebody after you've been with them for a few minutes. True understanding can only come with time and dedicating yourself to whatever it is, it's that way with everything. So one has to study the entire Bible to get an accurate picture of God and His plans for us. Can one read through a textbook on mechanical engineering (not sure why that, i'm an accountant, but whatever ) twice and claim that you know all there is to know about mechanical engineering? If so, then one is far beyond me.

  • Slappy
    Slappy

    Good points Awakened. Thanks for the clarification on those things you mentioned. However, I guess I'm getting the impression that since the JW beliefs and interpretations of the Bible have proven to be false, there are those that have immediately jumped to the conclusion that the Bible as a whole is false. It may be that I'm making too broad/hasty of a generalization, and I apologize for that. I just don't want people to assume that since a certain "religious take" on the Bible turns out to be false, that the Bible itself is false.

    If God knows what will happen thousands of years in advance (hence prophecy), that means our actions are predestined. And since we're not the ones predestining them (we don't have that kind of power), someone else would be the one... Who might that be?

    Not that I believe God is doing it; this is not an attack on God, but the concept of (a certain) God

    I'm sorry, I guess I don't see how God knowing the future means that our actions/lives are already predestined (aka. chosen for us). Just because we have free-will, that doesn't necessarily mean that there are an infinite number of possibilities that only become available when we reach that particular point in time. (Ouch, my head hurts now...I'll try a different angle. )

    Is God outside time? I think so. There are 3-4 different references in Revelation where God states that He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Also, look at Revelation 10:6

    And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer

    If God has the power to "begin" and "end" time, can we not assume that He is above and beyond the reach of time? It seems to me that to have power over something gives one the ability to change something according to one's will. I would give an example, but I think it's pretty straight-forward. Continuing on, if God has the power to change time, we can assume that He is outside time. And since He is outside time, time, as we know it, doesn't truly exist for God. As a result He can see everything, from the beginning to end. This is how He knows everything that is going to happen. He is at the end of time looking back; He is also at the beginning--He is all encompassing. So instead of seeing the limitless choices we can make with our free-will, He only sees the choices that we ended up making.

    This is an incredibly hard concept to grasp, because everything we know or do is based on time. Time is how we live, without it we are lost. So trying to comprehend things without the passing of time is difficult in the extreme. This is the conclusion that I came to when studying the thought of predestination (which didn't sit well with me because the thought of a God that picked who would be saved and who wouldn't be saved didn't sit well with my perception of God as I have gleaned from His Word). Also another reason I didn't like the idea of predestination is because there were those who felt that since God had "picked" them, they were somehow better than everybody else. That, in my opinion, is not the Spirit that Christ would have us to have.

  • B_Deserter
    B_Deserter

    Epicurus summed it up nicely:
    If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
    Then He is not omnipotent.

    If He is able, but not willing
    Then He is malevolent.

    If He is both able and willing
    Then whence cometh evil?

    If He is neither able nor willing
    Then why call Him God?

  • caliber
    caliber

    Isaiah 55 ....

    8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
    declares the LORD.

    9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts

    Our reasoning has limits we don't even understand yet.. Who are we to question God then ?

    Caliber

  • Homerovah the Almighty
    Homerovah the Almighty

    But weren't the gods developed out of human ignorance, if that is true, isn't theology an explanation of ignorance, after all we're only human

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