Jeremiah and the 70 years. Jewish exile or Babylonian rule?

by digderidoo 103 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  restrangled

  Thank you for bringing up this subject, it has always confused me.....and I didn't want to irritate those who seem to have a good understanding of this.

  BUT, I have to ask this as a 3rd generation now exjw. Why does this matter ?

  I was taught that those of an age of "discernment" in 1914 would not die before the big A. ( I was told people would be 9 or 10 years old)

  It was then changed to those who were of the age of understanding (anyone) ...ie: maybe 10 to 15 years of age.

  The understanding changed to anyone of the anointed in since 1935 and then that changed to any new anointed in this day and age...which could go on an on as we all know.

  Mary, I am looking forward to your research and hope you post it.

  In the mean time......

  Regardless of history, the 70 years etc., 1914 is a moot point, which has yet to be acknowledged by the WBTS. In the end, if you believe the Bible we were told no one would know the day or the hour.....so all this guessing of the last days, the last hours etc, is actually denied to all of us in my opinion!

  So we might as well enjoy our time here and make the most of it!!!!!!

  r.
• 

  scholar

  AnnOMaly

  Post 769

  The fact of the matter is that I have both articles to hand and both of which discuss the relevance of methodology to chronology and that really is the only point I wish to make. Young's opinion about the status of 587 over 586 is simply his opinion and time will tell which date will remain. My ball is already parked in the corner of 607 BCE as the only verifiable date.

  scholar JW
• 

  Narkissos

  Seeing that you make a reference to me in this post I feel obliged to reply.

  Lol, have I thereby broken some tacit pact of mutual non-aggression?

  Josephus is quite descriptive in his many references to the seventy years describing the period as one of servitude-exile-desolation running from the Fall of Jerusalem until the Return of the Jews. His testimony is unambiguous on this subject

  Sure, except Josephus can hardly provide any "testimony" on 6th-century-BC history; the only thing he can testify about is one popular 1st-century AD Jewish understanding of the "scriptural" 70 years... Btw, had he really meant more than that, he might have discussed Berossus' different chronology instead of merely quoting it, don't you think?

  and agrees with the statements by Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Zechariah each of which referrred to the seventy years from different standpoints and yet they all agreed with the foregoing.

  One day when you grow up you may realise that merely repeating a criticised assertion doesn't work out of the schoolyard...

  Higher critics and apostates dishonestly misrepresent those clear descriptions of the period by introducing fuzziness as to the chronology and emphasizing that the period began much earlier from the time of the first exile of prominent Jewry to Babylon and that the period was of Babylonian domination.

  If you have read my posts (and you have, as the following shows) you perfectly know that this is not my point. I precisely started posting on this thread to point out that "Babylonian domination" doesn't account for all the OT references to the "70 years".

  Such a hypothesis conflicts with the clear testimony of the Bible writers and finds no support in Josephus and amounts to a clear distortion of the Biblical evidence. There is simply no reason for believing that Jeremiah 25: 11 bc;29 applies before the Fall of Jerusalem and that the period ran after the Return according to Daniel and Zechariah. This is simply nonsense. The relevant texts speak for themselves.

  Repetition is not a counter-argument (see above).

  Further, the two references to the seventy years in Zechariah most clearly showed that the period had already long ended before he received the vision and this well supported by the context for both chapters.

  I explained why this is philologically impossible -- and I did the same thing with you a couple of years ago, if I remember correctly. Btw, have you finally started learning Biblical Hebrew since?

  Otherwise we have a hodge-podge of several seventy year periods all over the place which makes no sense at all.

  Interesting extra-contextual argument which clashes with the previous one, allegedly from context. Now, pray tell, why should all OT mentions of "70 years" refer to the same period?

  The evidence is quite clear that there was only one definte historic period of seventy years pertaining to Judah and this was well described by Ezra, Jeremiah, Daniel and Zechariah, a period of exile-desolation-servitude from the Fall in 607 BCE until the Return in 537 BCE confirmed by Josephus. Scholars and apostates with regard to the seventy years share one thing in common; confusion of interpretation of the seventy years.

  Leaving the nth "clear" repetition aside, thank you for admitting that "scholars and apostates" are globally on the same side on this discussion. You might think of changing your nickname...
• 

  JCanon

  As for the day-year principle, it is far from "enshrined in Biblical Hermeneutics." Only Adventists and Witnesses adhere to it. You haven't even discussed my reasons for rejecting the principle.

  In defense of the WTS and the "day for a year" application is that for every one of Daniel's time prophecies it works out, the most obvious being the "70 weeks" where the messiah appears at the end of 59 weeks. He certainly did not appear at the end of a literal 69 weeks from the time the word went forth to rebuild Jerusalem. That prophecy is consistently dated to 455 BCE based upon the baptism of Christ in 29 CE, a period of 483 days that has been converted to years.

  So whether or not to apply the "day for a year formula" for these prophecies is optional. And we can TEST whether or not the prophecy works with just literal days implies a day for a year.

  Another case in point is the "1335 days" prophecy. The WTS does not apply a "day for a year" for that prophecy right now. (ROFL!!!) Interestingly. But they did at first. It was the basis for the 1874 return of Christ to fulfill 1335 days. Now it's some happy time a literal 1335 days after something that happened in 1918 or something--I don't even know for sure it is so ridiculous. Others, though clearly think that the Balfour agreement in 1917 fulfills the 1260 days and that 1947 fulfills the 1290 days! So many others do clearly see these days are substituted for years on a regular basis for time prophecies of Daniel.

  Here's an example:

  "657 + 1260=1917 (Allenby's liberation of Jerusalem/Balfour Declaration)
  657 + 1290=1947 (UN votes Partition of Palestine/DSS found)
  657 + 1335=1992 (Modern era of 'Peace Process')"

  From: http://www.prophecycorner.com/agee/procon206.html

  Here's another:

  If 1917 was the termination of 1260 years, then the 1290 years would have been 30 years later -- the year 1947-48! That is the year when the United Nations voted to establish the state of Israel in the Middle East, and Israel fought off Arab invasion and became a nation! This would mean that the 1335 years would be an additional 45 years later -- or 1992-93! That was the year of the beginning of the Oslo Peace Accords, with their signing at the White House by Israeli Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat!

  From: http://www.triumphpro.com/1260,1290,1335.htm

  So when you have several prophecies that work out applying the day for a year, you apply it.

  Again, JWs did at first for the 1335 days and now they don't because their 1914 dating is bogus.

  But in my case, the 2520 years works for dating the second coming to 1992, 2520 years from 529 BCE using the VAT4956 to date year 11 of Nebuchadnezzar to 511 BCE as my secular dating authority. This matches my 1335 days prophecy which is common as noted above for the 1290 days to end in 1947 and point to 1992-1993 for the 1335 days. So it's the same date. So it works. Thus the "day for a year" formula was given to us to date future events, a formula for chronology for the elect.

  It might be confusing to the non-elect though who only see it as simple days, so that's understandable, and additionally, these prophecies have single day fulfillments as well. For instance, the 1335 days is fulfilled by Pentecost in relation to Jesus' ministry of 3-1/2 years assigned to 1290 days, etc.

  So there is no way NOW, after the fact, with fulfilled prophecy that you can get around deciding unilaterally not to apply the "day for a year" formula to ALL of Daniel's timed prophecies, which are pertinently the 1335 days, the 70 weeks, the 7 times, the 2300 evenings and mornings, the time-times-half time period of apostasy (i.e. 1260 years vs just 1260 days).

  JC
• 

  JCanon

  Regardless of history, the 70 years etc., 1914 is a moot point, which has yet to be acknowledged by the WBTS. In the end, if you believe the Bible we were told no one would know the day or the hour.....so all this guessing of the last days, the last hours etc, is actually denied to all of us in my opinion!

  The fact that the WTS does not have the correct interpretation does not mean the Bible is inaccurate. I have found my own understanding that works.

  As far as nobody knowing the day nor hour for when the messiah would arrive, you have to contrast that with the 7 times prophecies which would point to the same year the messiah would arrive. So that statement is not in conflict with determining the YEAR of the second coming, which is cross-matched to 3 different year-specific prophecies. The DAY and HOUR is not the MONTH and YEAR. We are told to keep on the watch and so to ignore the time prophecies is falling asleep.

  As far as 1914 goes, it is the correct date for beginning the "last generation" because the last generation begins with a world war. But it is NOT the "end of the gentile times" which happens in 1947, and it is not the date of the second coming, which happens in 1992.

  I have corrected the NB Period to its original dating, which is confirmed by the VAT4956 which dates year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar to 511 BCE, so based on that correction, 529 BCE is the fall of Jerusalem and 2520 years is 1992. Also the 1335 days prophecy which ends 1290 days when the Jews return to their homeland in 1947, also dates the 2nd coming in 1992, so it works. Christ, as prophesied did appear as a "thief" in 1992 to the world but his secret followers witnessed the second coming.

  So the truly awake and true followers are quite happy with all the chronology. The WTS, obvioiusly, has been cast out by Jehovah and are in clear spiritual rejection now groping in the darkness imposed upon them by Jehovah.

  JC
• 

  JCanon

  Scholar:

  Josephus is quite descriptive in his many references to the seventy years describing the period as one of servitude-exile-desolation running from the Fall of Jerusalem until the Return of the Jews. His testimony is unambiguous on this subject and agrees with the statements by Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Zechariah each of which referrred to the seventy years from different standpoints and yet they all agreed with the foregoing.

  You are inadequately characterizing Josephus' references to the 70 years. In Ant. 11.1 he clearly links the 70 years not to the "Fall of Jerualem" but to the last deportation. It would be nice if you and the WTS actually didn't misrepresent Josephus.

  IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.

  The day the people were completely removed out of their own land was the year of the LAST DEPORTATION, not the fall of Babylon. And please note that Gedaliah died in the 20th year! He is mourned on the 1st of the 7th month so there was only about a month and a half from the fall of Jerusalem until his death at the beginning of fall. He invited those scattered about to harvest summer fruits which means that call went out at the beginning of summer at least. So he dies the following year, the 20th year. Proving this is that the mourning over Gedaliah is 2 years later than the fall of Jerusalem. 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem falls in year 2 of Darius the Mede (Zech 1) and 70 years mourning for Gedaliah falls in year 4 of Darius the Mede (Zech 7). That means he died in the 20th year and began to be mourned in the 21st year. So the WTS' strong emphasis on the land being desolate from the 7th month of the year Jerusalem falls is non-Biblical. That in the face of ignoring Jeremiah 44:14,28 which clearly states that a remnant of those who had "escaped the sword" down in Egypt would return to Judea. So the land was not desolated until the 23rd year. This agrees with Josephus for the 70 years being marked from when the people were "removed out of their land", that is, when the last Jews were exiled to Babylon, year 23 of the last deportation.

  Thanks for correcting your statement about Josephus, or include that some of his references to the 70 years are specific to the last deportation.

  JC
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  JCanon

  Sure, except Josephus can hardly provide any "testimony" on 6th-century-BC history; the only thing he can testify about is one popular 1st-century AD Jewish understanding of the "scriptural" 70 years... Btw, had he really meant more than that, he might have discussed Berossus' different chronology instead of merely quoting it, don't you think?

  In all fairness to Josephus, he was closer to the Jewish traditional view of the 70 years than Carl Jonsson or any of us today. He had access to more extant records. So what is CRITICAL about Josephus is not simply his "testimony" but his INTERPRETATION. Josephus is interpreting the Biblical record and giving us his understanding in the context of Jewish tradition for when these 70 years occurred in fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy. That is what is significant about Josephus. He's a JEW interpreting Jewish history.

  His interpretation of when the 70 years were is from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus. When that is compared to the Bible, it checks out since the Jews are still in exile and the cities still denounced and desolated 70 years later in the 2nd of Darius the Mede. This is consistent with the 70 years of servitude of the last deportees still having 4 more years to go before they expire. Also note the end of the exile does not end when the "royalty of the MEDES" begins, which is a reference to Darius the Mede. But specifically the "royalty of PERSIA." Cyrus began to rule 6 years after Darius the Mede. So the 70 years does not end with the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes and the Persians but only when Cyrus comes to rule over all of Persia. It is in the 1st of Cyrus that the Jews are released not the 1st of Darius.

  Finally as far as "testimony" the VAT4956 proves that the chronology was revised by the Persians and that the original dating for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar was actually 511 BCE. So that impugns all "testimony" by those revised Babylonian records and fake astronomical texts from the Seleucid Period as well.

  NARKISSOS: Would you mind terribly, just as a favor to me just commenting generally on what you think about when I bring up the 511 BCE dating in the VAT4956? Does it sound ridiculous. Does it sound spurious? Inaccurate? I'm just curious. Thanks. Here's my vid on the details of the observations for your reference. THANKS.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69ptRtpWEiw

  JC
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  JCanon

  SCHOLAR:

  Further, the two references to the seventy years in Zechariah most clearly showed that the period had already long ended before he received the vision and this well supported by the context for both chapters.

  I can't believe you'd make a statement like this! The end of the 70 years is dated to the 2nd and 4th of Darius, one period of desolation of Jerusalem and one for the mourning over Gedaliah. Clearly this was the 70th year of denunciation that was CONTINUING and had not ended. This is consistent with the Bible and Josephus not beginning the 70 years until the "people were removed out of the land" which is a reference to the last deportation. The Jews were still in the land until the 23rd year per Jer. 44:14,28.

  WOULD YOU MIND commenting for me on how you think Jeremiah 44:14 and 28 are to be understood?

  Thus 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem and 70 years after the mourning of Gedaliah should have occurred while the Jews were still in exile since it would be another two years before they were to be released anyway. That's because the 1st of Cyrus would fall 74 years after the fall of Jerusalem, not 70 years. This is a critical error and FALSE TEACHING of JWs which is why they are false prophets and why Jehovah has denounced them. They follow neither Josephus nor the Bible. And they avoid like a plague relating that those last deported were actually the remaining ones from Egypt. They are such FALSE PROPHETS.

  All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not deceived to that point where I have to deny the scriptures.

  JC
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  scholar

  CunningMan

  Post 98

  There are several good reasons to believe that the Tree Dream described in Daniel 4 has both a typical and anti-typical fulfillment and I list these some of these reasons as follows:

  1. Kingdom references. Daniel 4: 3,17, 25,32, 34

  2. Use of Aramaic word iddan for 'times'.

  3. Traces of Messianism

  4. Fuflfillment as a period of chastisement. Leviticus 26: 17,18, 24, 28

  5. Luke 21 :24 Jesus' description of 'Gentile Times'

  6.Patristic references

  7.Dream-Interpretation-Fulfillment as an object of its narration

  6. Jesus' use of Daniel in His Olivet Discourse

  7.Context of Daniel 4 within the entire book

  8.Historiography

  9. Use of Greek word kairon for times.

  This will do for starters and will give you some structure for a required exegesis.

  scholar JW
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  JCanon

  There are several good reasons to believe that the Tree Dream described in Daniel 4 has both a typical and anti-typical fulfillment and I list these some of these reasons as follows:

  Another good scripture is Ezekiel 21:10 where the sword of Nebuchadnezzar is said to ignore the scepter of God's own son as it ignores a tree.

  “Say, ‘A sword, a sword! It has been sharpened, and it is also polished. 10 For the purpose of organizing a slaughter it has been sharpened; for the purpose of its getting a glitter it has been polished.’”’”

  “Or shall we exult?”

  “‘Is it rejecting the scepter of my own son, as [it does] every tree?

  19 “And as for you, O son of man, set for yourself two ways for the sword of the king of Babylon to enter.

  So the sword of Babylon cuts down the scepter of God's representative kingdom on the earth, which is likened to cutting down a tree; thus the kingship of Judah is likened to a tree that is cut down by Babylon.

  In addition, Nebuchadnezzar is called God's "servant" and thus he himself in a sense represents the messiah. So his seven years of being off the throne could also refer to a kingly representative sitting on God's throne for "7 times."

  So in this case, there is a considerable comfort zone is expanding this prophecy as a reference to someone sitting on the earthly throne of king David or at least a king to be present in the earth who will first rule in the midst of his enemies.

  But that brings up another aspect of this prophecy. That is, it makes sense if Christ returns in the flesh, becoming a human representative on the earth of God's kingdom represented by the Judean kings. It gets a little confusing when Christ never returns in the flesh and he rules from heaven as the WTS now teaches and thus there is never an earthly representative of the kingdom again.

  It also is more consistent with the representation if when Jesus returns he returns in the flesh so he can be said to be "ruling in the midst of his enemies", meaning upon his return he does not immediately sit on the throne of king David when he arrives. Christ returning in 1914 invisibly and still in spirit form does not parallel well with the physical interruption of an earthly representative. Whereas, when Jesus actually returns in the flesh and is back on the earth again, there is a more symmetrical parallel in terms of a JW-concept, that of a recognize king in the earthy sitting on Jehovah's representative throne.

  Also, there are two bands used to stop the tree's growth. One of iron and one of copper. These represent the two messiahs. The messiah of the first coming, coming through the line of Judah and being typically Jewish, meaning fair and white. But the second coming of copper is through the line of Joseph whose children were half Egyptian. Thus the copper banding represents the darker complexion of the messiah at the second coming.

  So it is interesting the WTS clearly understands how to apply the double fulfillment here and how to calculate 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem and removal of the king, and understands that the throne will be left desolate until he who has the legal right appears, who is the messiah, but does not understand that that messiah fulfills the return by actually showing up in the flesh to rule on the earth for 1000 years. Instead, because he didn't show up in 1914, they claim he is invisibly ruling from the heavens in the midst of his enemies. How can Jesus be in the "midst of his enemies" if he is safe and far away safe in heaven? That is, compared to his having returned a second coming in the flesh where the messiah-king is actually on the earth where his enemies are and thus could be literally said to be ruling in their midst.

  In other words, the 2520 years represents a period when there would be no representative human king on the earth sitting on God's representative throne. No man was to be recognized as sitting on God's throne until the messiah arrives. If Jesus comes back in the flesh, then that 2520-year interruption makes sense. It actually separates two fleshly kings. When Jesus simply rules from heaven then there still remains no earthly representative of the kingdom. The 2520 years was meant to separate the rule of two earthly kings.

  JC