Like my Grandmother told me - It dont matter if we are wrong we are still trying to figure it out.
elder-schmelder
HERE'S A BOMBSHELL ABOUT THE 144,000 DOCTRINE......
by Mary 82 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Leolaia
Nice find, Mary....And I really liked the bit about visiting with Jim Penton. BTW, I would love to get into contact with him about aspects of JW history, such as about Rutherford's drinking. He had some of his own research on this and I was wondering if he had any further details to divulge than he was able to give in the 1980s in his book (such as the name of the person who sold Rutherford alcohol in San Diego, if he or she is no longer alive; I would like to follow up on researching this, curious if there is a connection with Alta Eckols, as Clayton Woodworth hinted that alcohol was prescribed by Rutherford's chiropractor).
Since people here are discussing whether the 144,000 is different from the "great crowd" in Revelation, and its relation to the twelve tribes of Israel, I should give a shout-out to my detailed researched thread on the subject:
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White Dove
And all this fudge is why I never could successfully argue at any door with a competent HH.
I was saying duh and drooling by the second sentence out of their mouths.
There is no way on god's green hades that I could ever hope to connect those stupid dots!
No way!
I like my milk cold and with chocolate, please Ma'am.
Thank you very much!
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still_in74
This is just my personal opinion, but from some bible scholars on the internet I came to agree that the 144,000 and the great crowd are the same. The 144,000 is the symbolic number for the great crowd. The number representing completeness. There are 12 thrones and 12 apostles. It seems to me that Jesus was talking to the apostles and telling them they would sit on the thrones. How would 144,000 people sit on 12 thrones. The great crowd ( or the 144,000 ) would be the ones that the apostles would judge
EXCELLENT POINT! - But who are the 24 elders then?
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Word
EXCELLENT POINT! - But who are the 24 elders then?
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Aaron .....
Jesus Christ created the new Israel choosing Twelve Apostles
The Twelve Apostles are heads of twelve tribes the 144 000
The Jehovah's Witnesses has nothing to do with this!
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Blueblades
Mary! Mary! Mary! Wow! Wow! Wow! I love this stuff !
Thanks so much for that research. I still have my set of the Insight books. Where is my marker? I will saved this one.
This is a conversation stopper for sure
Blueblades.
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Hope4Others
I thought that this was quite interesting about the 144,000 and the great crowd being the same. Franz also refers to this in the
The Search of christian Freedom book with a chart on pages...( 717-719) he draws 10 parallels of the scripstures from Rev 7 showing the same terminology of anointed and un-annointed are used to describe each. So is it not very possible that these are speaking about the same common group/class?
The 12,000 from each tribe is spoken by the Wt as figurative the question then is how can the addition of all these figuritive elements produce a literal total or sum, namely a literal 144,000.
Interesting it stated that the figure of the 24 elders is not literal but is symbolic of the full number of those who reign with Christ in Heaven.
The "Grand Climaxis At Hand" book page 77...
So if the 24 figure is symbolic why should not all the other numbers be also symbolic (common sense conclusion) its either all figurative or all literal
you can't keep it half and half.Cheers
hope4others
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TooBad TooSad
Mary,
You have brought this up and now I can not stop thinking about it.
You are going to stumble me out of the Truth!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your research. I so wish that Witnesses had the opportunity
to ask questions at the meetings rather than answer word for word what
is given them from the Witchtower Babble and Trick Society.
TooBad TooSad
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dogisgod
Wow Mary!!!! You go girl!!!!
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still_in74
Interesting it stated that the figure of the 24 elders is not literal but is symbolic of the full number of those who reign with Christ in Heaven.
The "Grand Climaxis At Hand" book page 77yes I love that part about the 24 elders.
Its amazing how the 144K are in heaven standing before THEMSELVES (24 elders) singing a song that nobody else can master.
Yet the 144K arent all their yet because this happened in 1914 - BUT the 144K is so sure to happen that it is AS IF THEY ARE THERE!
So that is why even though some of the 144K arent even born yet (helll some of their parents arent even born yet) but they are there in heaven way back in 1914 singing before themselves in heaven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!