by sacolton 33 Replies latest jw friends
How many of you were taught the star of Bethlehem was actually Satan directing the Magi to Jesus so they could report back to King Herod have Jesus killed?
When I first heard this from an elder, I started doubting their teachings. Why must they demonize EVERYTHING that is beautiful in the bible?
I was told this. I was told that Satan put the star in the sky so that the three astrologers, as the Dubs called them, could find Jesus for Herod to kill.
Stupid Dubs.
Serena
Yes sacolton...another WT teaching to try to demonize everything about Christmas. If a JW read the entire chapter in Matthew 2 it would paint a different story.
| | Mat 2:1 | Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, |
| | Mat 2:2 | "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him." It does not say the star led them to Herod. They saw his star and assumed, like many, that the Messiah would be born in Jerusalem- the capital. |
| | Mat 2:3 | When Herod the king heard {this,} he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. |
| | Mat 2:4 | Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. |
| | Mat 2:5 | They said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet: |
| | Mat 2:6 | 'AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH, ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH; FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.' " |
| | Mat 2:7 | Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared. |
| | Mat 2:8 | And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found {Him,} report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him." |
| | Mat 2:9 | After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over {the place} where the Child was. Hmm, ok...the star led them to the child. Why? For what prupose? |
| | Mat 2:10 | When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. |
| | Mat 2:11 | After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. |
| | Mat 2:12 | And having been warned {by God} in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way. Hmm, provided the family with expensive gifts and money. |
| | Mat 2:13 | Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord *appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him." So the magi were God-fearing men. They listened to the Lord. |
| | Mat 2:14 | So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt. Here is the entire significance... |
| | Mat 2:15 | He remained there until the death of Herod. {This was} to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON." |
The magi served to provide financial means for Joseph, Mary, & Jesus to go to Egypt to escape from Herod. This was to fulfill the above stated OT prophecy regarding the Messiah. We know Satan did not want the OT prophecies regarding the Messiah to be fulfilled. So who would have provided the star to lead the magi to the Child to fund their move? God.
Chris: Joe, can you tell me why the Watchtower believes that the star of Bethlehem was Satan's star and that the wise men were led by Satan?
Joe: I have brought some information from the Watchtower for you to look at Chris. Look at this article in the July 1, 1985 Watchtower. On pages 16 & 17 it says "Who do you think provided the star that moved in the sky to guide the astrologers? Remember, the star did not guide them directly to Jesus in Bethlehem. Rather, they were led to Jerusalem where they came in touch with King Herod, who wanted to kill Jesus. And he would have done so if God had not stepped in and warned the astrologers not to tell Herod. It was God's enemy, Satan the Devil, who wanted Jesus killed, and he used that star to try to accomplish this purpose." You see, Chris the star that led the magi was Satan's star and it was used to try to destroy Jesus.
Chris: That is certainly a very interesting premise Joe, but I have never seen it that way from scripture. I'm wondering if you could answer some questions I have about the story of the star and the wise men found in the Bible.
Joe: I am always willing to answer your Bible questions.
Chris: Look at Matthew 2:1 & 2.
Joe: In the New World Translation is says "After Jesus had been born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, look! Astrologers from eastern parts came to Jerusalem, saying: "Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star (when we were) in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance."
Chris: Joe, according to Matthew 2:1 & 2, where did the wise men see the star?
Joe: It says they saw the star when they were in the east.
Chris: Does it say that the star led them to Jerusalem?
Joe: Well...no, it just says that they saw the star in the east. But it had to lead them to Jerusalem or else how did they get there?
Chris: Obviously they knew something about the Jews and their religion because the Bible says that they knew that the star was connected with the long-awaited king of the Jews. If they were aware of the Jew's belief in a coming king, where do you think that they would look to find the king?
Joe: Jerusalem was the logical choice as it was the capital city and had the throne of king Herod.
Chris: That's right, Joe. Logically Jerusalem would be the place to start their search for the king. But can you find any verse that says that the star led the wise men to Jerusalem?
Joe: Hmmm. Well, no I guess there isn't any verse. We just assume that the star led them to Jerusalem because Satan wanted Jesus killed.
Chris: You know Joe, there is a verse that talks about the star leading the magi. Have a look at Matt. 2:9.
Joe: It says, "When they had heard the king, they went their way; and, look! the star they had seen (when they were) in the east went ahead of them, until it came to a stop above where the young child was."
Chris: Joe, did the star lead the magi to Jesus?
Joe: Yes, it did. But it was Satan's star.
Chris: Look at verse 12. Who gave the wise men direction in a dream?
Joe: It says "However, because they were given divine warning in a dream not to return to Herod, they withdrew to their country by another way." Here Jehovah warned the wise men to stay away from Herod but he had to do this or else Herod would have killed Jesus.
Chris: If the star of Bethlehem was Satan's star, then Satan goofed! He should have sent the star to direct Herod not the wise men. You see the wise men were obedient to Jehovah, but Herod obviously was not.
Joe: The star couldn't have been Jehovah's star. There is no reason to send pagan astrologers to Jesus other then to stir up Herod to try to kill Jesus.
Chris: Joe, if the magi were pawns of Satan and influenced by him, then they would not have obeyed Jehovah's warning in a dream. The fact that they obeyed Jehovah proves that they were sent by him.
Joe: So, they obeyed him that proves nothing.
Chris: Jehovah could easily have stopped the wise men from finding Jesus just as He stopped Herod from finding Jesus. But the wise men provided something for his Son that was needed because of an important prophecy.
Joe: What do you mean?
Chris: Matthew 2:15 quotes a prophecy from Jehovah about His Son being in Egypt. And verse 18 is another prophecy quoted about the death of the young children that would be killed by Herod. It was no surprise to Jehovah that Herod would cause the death of many children in an attempt to kill Jesus. Jehovah already knew this and gave a prophecy to show that He was prepared for this event. How would Jehovah provide protection for Jesus?
Joe: He would send Jesus and his parents into Egypt.
Chris: If Jehovah already knew that his Son would need to go to Egypt just as Jehovah prophecied, what did He prepare to provide financially for his Son in Egypt?
Joe: I've never thought of that question before. I don't know.
Chris: Just think, Joe. The wise men brought very expensive gifts to the young child Jesus. These gifts were worth enough to finance the stay in Egypt of God's Son. These men brought Jehovah's financial provision for Jesus and not until after the magi left were Jesus' parents instructed to flee to Egypt. Now Joe, whose star do you think the star of Bethlehem really was?
Yes! Absolutely! I am 29, and I was taught from birth that the star of Bethlehem is really Satan!!!! Also, that originally the Magi were sent to kill Jesus, as well as any other first born, but that Jehovah made them have visions in their dreams that caused them to become good, and actually seek Jesus out to give him the gifts.
Now, think about what I just said. If YHWH God really did change their heart attitude and they became good, then wouldn't logic and common sense dictate that YHWH God, NOT Satan, made the Star of Bethlehem in order to guide them???? I mean, why would Satan put it there in order to guide the now-good Magi??? That doesn't make any sense.
Oh, and the whole argument about not celebrating Christmas is now null and void. The excuse to me was always that, "Well, Jesus didn't command the disciples to observe his birth, only his death on the torture stake," Really??? If God or Jesus didn't want us to observe it, then why mention in the Bible that the angels in heaven were singing and rejoicing at the glorious occasion?? If it's good enough for the angels to observe, then why not us??? This is rediculous. Also, no one worships a Christmas tree, Santa, or presents. We can use their QFR article about how Pinatas are ok to use to PROVE that even if something has pagan origins, but does no longer have pagan signifigance, then it's ok to have.
See, "Questions from Readers", July 8th, 2004, page 30. If they can use that reasoning on Pinatas which had pagan origins and is used in birthdays, then we can also apply it to other holidays. I am astounded every time I read that article. They totally talk out of both sides of their mouths.
- Wing Commander
thanks for that dialog SAC...I knew I had read that in the past.
Wow....your converstation above is amazing......you brought up points I had never heard, nor even considered before. This truly proves to me without a doubt that the star was from YHWH.
I can't believe how I was made to believe twisted reasoning.
- Wing Commander
You can find that "conversation" and more here:
It's amazing how I was forced to think about the Society's teachings when I read those simulated conversations.
Sylvia
Chris: Joe in the last couple of weeks we have been discussing the reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas. When I read from a very old Watchtower magazine I was surprised to see that originally the Watchtower taught that Christmas was alright for Jehovah's Witnesses to celebrate and that the date, although it wasn't important, corresponded to his conception rather then his birth.
Joe: I was never told why the Watchtower celebrated Christmas in their early years but I still believe that Christmas is a pagan holiday and is condemned by the Bible. After all, Chris, did Jehovah ever command Christians to celebrate the birth of his son?
Chris: There is no direct command but I believe that there is a precedence in scripture that allows God's people to have the freedom to chose their own holiday in order to celebrate God's gift of life sent in the person of God's son.
Joe: I have never seen any scripture like that.
Chris: Joe, take a look at the Book of Esther. You remember the story - God's people were faced with complete annihilation shortly after Esther became Queen. Without regard for her life Esther approached the king and plead for the life of her people. But the law that called for the death of the Jews had been signed with the king's name and signet ring and could not be revoked. In order to save the Jews, Queen Esther was given the king's signet ring and permission granted for her to write a law that would protect them. The new law allowed the Jews to gather together to protect their lives. Joe, read what happed from Esther 9:1 from the New World Translation.
Joe: "...on the day for which the enemies of the Jews had waited to domineer over them, there was even a turning to the contrary, in that the Jews themselves domineered over those hating them."
Chris: The Jews were so happy that they were saved from their enemies that they instituted their own holy day or holiday and called it Purim. In Esther 9:9-31 it says "Therefore the Jews...celebrated the fourteenth day of the month of Adar as a day of gladness and feasting, as a holiday, and for sending presents to one another...And Mordecai wrote these things...to establish among them that they should celebrate yearly the fourteenth day of the month of Adar, as the days on which the Jews had rest from their enemies, as the month which was turned from sorrow to joy for them, and from mourning to a holiday; that they should make them days of feasting and joy, of sending presents to one another and gifts to the poor. So the Jews accepted the custom which theyhad begun...they called these days Purim...the Jews established...that without fail they should celebrate these two days every year...they had decreed for themselves." Joe was it okay with Jehovah that the Jews created their own holiday, gave it a name and accepted the custom to celebrate Purim every year?
Joe: Well, I guess it was alright with Jehovah. I know that the Jews celebrated Purim in Jesus time and still do to this day. Jesus never condemned the celebration.
Chris: That's right Joe. You see Purim was instituted by the Jews and the very day that Satan instituted as a day of death for the Jews was turned around as a victorious celebration for them. In the same way Christians have the freedom to chose to celebrate the marvelous gift of God's Son. The Christians who originally instituted the celebration of the conception together with the birth of our Savior believed that it was right to honor Jesus on any day, and Christians throughout the centuries have agreed. As a result December 25 th the day that pagans worshiped the sun in the sky, was victoriously taken back for God in order to honor and adore God's gift of His Son. The victory of light over darkness has been so outstanding that the pagan worship of the sun on December 25 th has long disappeared.
Joe: I've never thought of it that way before. But, Chris, I could never celebrate Christmas because if I did I would be disfellowshipped. I would be kicked out of the kingdom.
Chris: That is a very drastic action. Can we discuss next week the reasons why the Watchtower kicks people out of the kingdom for celebrating Christmas?
Joe: Sure.
Chris: Joe, the Watchtower does not want their followers to honor the birth of Christ. Can you tell me why?
Joe: Chris, the Watchtower says in the Dec. 15, 1994 issue, "If you are now an adult, have you ever felt embarrassed when, in your presence, people showed photographs of you as a baby? True, such pictures remind your parents of their joy at your birth. But now that you have an identity of your own, do you not usually prefer others to see you as your are? In a similar vein, think how disrespectful it is toward Christ Jesus when those who claim to be his followers become so engrossed each year in the pagan traditions of Christmas and in honoring an infant that they fail to honor him as King."
Chris: That is a serious charge! The Watchtower seems to imply that one cannot honor the birth of Christ as well as honor Jesus as King. Yet Christians around the world honor Jesus both for his birth and for being King. Is it really a serious matter for a Jehovah's Witnesses to choose to celebrate Christmas?
Joe: The Watchtower Dec. 15, 1984 says that the most serious danger of celebrating Christmas is that it could lead to losing God's favor and we as Jehovah's Witnesses realize that to celebrate Christmas would mean being brought before a judicial committee and then kicked out.
Chris: When did celebrating Christmas become such a serious matter that one could lose God's favor and thus lose eternal life?
Joe: Well the Watchtower says that God never intended that Christians should celebrate the birth of His Son. In their eyes it has always been wrong.
Chris: Didn't the Watchtower celebrate Christmas many years ago?
Joe: Yes. When the Watchtower was first formed, the founder Charles T. Russell and the early Jehovah's Witnesses all celebrated Christmas.
Chris: Was the Watchtower required to stop celebrating Christmas before Jehovah God approved of them?
Joe: No. The Watchtower still celebrated Christmas for many years after Jesus picked them in 1919 as the only organization on earth that was worthy of being the faithful slave.
Chris: Doesn't that sound hypocritical? The Watchtower condemns others for celebrating Christ's birth yet they say that they found God's favor at the time when they were still celebrating Christmas. If Jehovah did not condemn them then, why would his standards change now?
Joe: I don't think Jehovah's standards changed.
Chris: Then the Watchtower's standards changed. When the Watchtower celebrated Christmas did they celebrate in a different way then we do today?
Joe: No, they celebrated Christmas in much the same way that Christians celebrate today. They gave gifts, had Christmas decorations, sang Christmas carols. The Watchtower even agreed with Christendom that although Dec. 25 was not the day that Jesus was born, it most likely was the date of conception, and it was as good a day as any to join in with the rest of the world to celebrate his birth.
Chris: What changed their minds about Christmas?
Joe: Sometime after Rutherford became president he decided that too much emphasis was put on Jesus and not enough on Jehovah and the kingdom. He outlawed Christmas saying that it was a pagan celebration.
Chris: Did he ban everything that had pagan roots like the Roman calender, wedding anniversaries and wedding rings?
Joe: No he allowed those things. They are no longer looked on as pagan today so they are okay.
Chris: But Joe, no one worships the sun in the sky on Dec. 25 anymore. Why did Rutherford still ban Christmas?
Joe: Rutherford felt that at Christmas time, people gave honor and worship to Jesus and this took away from the worship of Jehovah.
Chris: What does the Bible say about how the Son is to be honored? Look at John 5:23.
Joe: It says "in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."
Chris: So we are to honor the Son just as we honor the Father. Giving honor to Jesus at any time of year does not take away from honoring the Father. In fact John 5:23 says that giving honor to Jesus honors the Father.
Joe: I've never seen that verse before.
Oh yes, SAC.
Please find the one where Chris welcomes Joe to the Family of God.
I get all choked up just thinking about it!
Sylvia
