Holy cow! I've always believed what the WT taught about the magi and the star. I can't believe how they twisted it that way. Thanks Sacolton for the post!
Star of Bethlehem = Satan?
by sacolton 33 Replies latest jw friends
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BurnTheShips
Good stuff! Keep it coming.
BTS
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Awakened at Gilead
Maybe the star adds weight to the argument that the belief in Jesus had its basis in Greek mythology and astrology?
(I do have backup on this)
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sacolton
Chris: Hello, Joe. It is nice to see you again. How have you been?
Joe: I have been feeling just sick about the terrorist attack at the World Trade Centre in New York City. I have been filled with so much fear that it has been hard for me to work at my job.
Chris: Why are you so fearful Joe?
Joe: I am worried that this is the start of Armageddon. I am afraid that I have not done enough to survive. I can't talk to anyone in my kingdom hall because they would just look down on me. I talked with an overseer years ago when there was a situation in the Middle East but all he told me was that I needed to put more hours in the service and place more magazines.
Chris: Joe, help me to understand what you are saying. I know that the Watchtower has encouraged people to come into the organization for safety. Why is it that you don't feel safe?
Joe: The Society has set a minimum standard of 10 hours a month in door to door witnessing and I have managed to put in 15 - 20 hours a month even with my hectic schedule. I hardly miss a meeting and I know that I have placed more Watchtower and Awake! Magazines than most others in the congregation, but I still don't feel that I have done enough. Sometimes I find myself envying those who died in the New York disaster. Everyone who dies before Armageddon except for murders are guaranteed that they will be resurrected onto paradise earth, yet I struggle so hard and have no assurance at all. I often lay awake at night during a thunderstorm and fear grips my heart as I realize that this could be the start of Armageddon and Jehovah could just zap me at any moment.
Chris: I never realized that you were that fearful.
Joe: I have learned how to hide it very well, but when I am alone I am so fearful that I have even thought about suicide a few times. What has stopped me is that the Society says that anyone who murders will not receive a resurrection and I know that suicide is self murder.
Chris: If I understand you right, Joe, anyone of any religion and even atheists, according to the Watchtower will receive a second chance on paradise earth as long as they die before Armageddon. Any Hindu, Muslim, or atheist, any Baptist, Catholic or Mormon, all who die will be given a second chance to prove themselves worthy of everlasting life.
Joe: Yes, that's right.
Chris: But that also means is that any Hindu, Muslim or atheist, any Baptist, Catholic or Mormon who dies five minutes later at the start of Armageddon will not receive a resurrection. Is that what the Watchtower teaches, Joe?
Joe: I...I've never quite thought of it that way before but you are right. That is what the Society teaches.
Chris: Joe, I have a real problem with two of the Watchtower's teachings. The first problem I have is that the Watchtower in essence teaches that God discriminates between people depending on when they die. If they die before Armageddon, they are safe. But if the very same people die at Armageddon, they are condemned. I see no scriptural evidence for this kind of discrimination. The second problem I have is with the Watchtower's teaching that God gives a second chance after death. This teaching contradicts the bible In Hebrews 9:27 when it says "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." By belief in a second chance after death the Watchtower is actually teaching that people who are resurrected onto paradise earth but who do not pass the final test will physically die twice. By teaching that men have a second chance after death, the Watchtower contradicts Jesus' clear teaching that men will have to give an account of themselves for what they do or say in this lifetime. Jesus said in Matthew 12:36 & 37 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Joe: I have tried to do all that was required of me yet I don't feel that I have done enough. I don't understand why it is that you have such a confidence that you are accepted by Jehovah and that you will be saved when I don't.
Chris: When I was a young child I realized that I was a sinner. I had never done anything really bad but I knew that I did not measure up to God's perfect standards. I understood that Jesus had died to take my place as full payment for my personal sins. I also believed that he was resurrected from the dead in his own body as proof that he had taken victory over death and the grave. I asked Jesus to forgive me of my sins and to come into my heart and be my personal Lord and Savior. From that moment on I had an assurance that because of Jesus' works, not my own, that I was accepted as one of God's children and that I would never come into God's condemnation.
Chris: Joe, one of the things that I learned when I started to grow spiritually is that my trust is not to be place in any mortal man because they can fail me. I have learned how to trust my Lord and Savior alone.
Joe: Are you trying to insinuate that I am putting my trust in men?
Chris: Well, you tell me. You are believing the Watchtower when they tell you that all will be resurrected onto a paradise earth and yet Jesus showed that not all would have the same kind of resurrection. Jesus very clearly taught that the kind of resurrection one had depended on how we lived our lives in this life. If we lived our lives putting our trust in Jesus alone, we would have a resurrection of the just. If we lived our lives in our own wisdom and trusting in our own righteousness we would have a resurrection of the unjust. No where does the Bible say we will be judged on how we live our lives after the resurrection. We only have one chance to live for God and that is here and now. The reason that I have an assurance of my salvation is that I have trusted Jesus to come into my heart and life. Jesus said in John 5:24 "Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." The moment I trusted in Jesus I passed from death into life. Even though my body may die, I have the promise of eternal life right here and now. Joe you have chosen to trust the words of an organization that contradicts God's word by their traditions. And their tradition is that there is a second chance after death. People want to believe that they can have a second chance but Jesus said that people can die in their sins. Those who die in their sins can never hope to be with him. Jesus said in John 8:21, 24 "Then Jesus said to them again, ‘I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come...Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins.'" Joe, you can never come to God through an organization. You must come to Jesus admitting that you have sinned and that you are accountable for your sin. One of the sins that you need to confess is that you have trusted in an organization for your salvation when he told you through his word not to trust in men.
Joe: Why do I need to ask Jesus to forgive me? I can just ask Jehovah for forgiveness.
Chris: Jesus has been given authority to forgive sins - Matthew 9:6. You need to ask him to forgive you and you need to trust him. The next thing that you need to do is invite Jesus' spirit to come into your heart and life.
Joe: But I have a hard time believing what you believe because what the Watchtower teaches has always been so logical and reasonable to me. And what happens if I were to ask Jesus into my heart and I received a demon?
Chris: God already knew that Jehovah's Witnesses would ask that question. He has already put his answer in his word. Jesus said in Matthew 7:9-11. "Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he given him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" Joe, God already knew that there would be people and organizations who would teach things that sound reasonable but would lead a person into spiritual death. He tells in Proverbs 16:25 "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Anyone who contradicts God's word by teaching that there is a second chance for people after death is leading people away from God and his word. Joe, I know you don't understand everything right now but why don't you ask Jesus to help you to understand God's word and to trust it. Ask Jesus to lead you into truth because he is the Truth. Ask him to forgive your sins.
Joe: But I have never prayed a prayer like that. I don't know how.
Chris: Joe, you just talk to Jehovah like you are talking to me. You ask him to forgive you for believing other people's words above his Son's word. Then you ask him to take control of your life and give you his Son's righteousness. Then just ask Jesus to be your personal Lord and Saviour.
Joe: Jehovah God please help me...I have never prayed a prayer like this before. Please forgive me for all my sins. I know that I haven't lived up to your standards. Jehovah please forgive my unbelief. There is still so much that I don't understand, please help me in those areas that I don't understand yet. Help me with my unbelief, because I really want to trust you fully. Give me your Son's righteousness. I know that I need his righteousness because I know that I could never be good enough for you with my own good works. Now, Jehovah, I ask your permission to talk to your Son Jesus. Jesus.....I'm sorry for believing in an organization that teaches that there is a second chance after death. Help me to be acceptable to Jehovah. Thank you for dying in my place and for defeating death by your resurrection. Thank you that you are willing to give me your righteousness in exchange for my own flawed effort at good works. Please be my Lord and Saviour. I ask you to be in my life to give me direction. Thank you Jesus. I pray all of this in the name of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.
Chris: Joe, welcome to the family of God.
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snowbird
Please be my Lord and Saviour. I ask you to be in my life to give me direction. Thank you Jesus. I pray all of this in the name of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.
Chris: Joe, welcome to the family of God.
That's it!!!
Thank you so much, SAC.
With a full heart.
Sylvia
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blondie
*** w02 12/15 p. 32 "The Three Wise Men"—Who Were They? ***
The information conveyed to these men did not lead to any good. It aroused wicked King Herod’s jealous anger. This, in turn, resulted in the flight of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus to Egypt and the murder of all male children in Bethlehem "from two years of age and under." Herod had carefully ascertained the time of Jesus’ birth from what he learned from the astrologers. (Matthew 2:16) In view of all the troubles caused by their visit, it is reasonable to concludethat the star that they saw and the message about "the one born king of the Jews" came from God’s enemy, Satan the Devil, who wanted to do away with Jesus.—Matthew 2:1, 2.
*** g94 7/8 p. 6 The Stars And Man—Is There a Connection? ***
Did this starlike object originate with God? Since the astrologers’ visit led indirectly to the slaughter of ‘all the boys in Bethlehem and in all its districts from two years of age and under,’ is it not reasonable to conclude that "the star" was something used by God’s Adversary, Satan, in an attempt to destroy God’s Son?—Matthew 2:1-11, 16.
It is reasonable to conclude is WT wording that "the bible does not say but we will now add to the bible."
Other "reasonable" conclusions.
Adam’s firstborn son, Cain, murdered his brother Abel and thereafter lived as a fugitive. The apostle John described Cain as one "who originated with the wicked one." (1 John 3:12) It is reasonable to conclude that like his parents, he went to Gehenna when he died. (Matthew 23:33, 35)
*** w05 7/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***What happened to Solomon when he died? The Bible answers: "The days that Solomon had reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel were forty years. Then Solomon lay down with his forefathers, and was buried in the City of David his father." (1 Kings 11:42, 43) Hence, it seems reasonable to conclude that Solomon is in Sheol, or Hades, from which he will be resurrected.
*** w03 2/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***What, then, of the word that his servants hear from behind? It is reasonable to conclude that the voice from behind is God’s voice from the past, speaking through his written Word as it is made plain through his "faithful steward." (Luke 12:42
*** w97 8/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***It is reasonable to conclude that when Matthew quoted a verse from the Hebrew Scriptures where the Tetragrammaton is found, he incorporated the divine name in his Gospel.
*** w91 2/1 p. 17 par. 10 Honor the Son, Jehovah’s Chief Agent ***It may therefore be reasonable to conclude that the angel that destroyed Sennacherib’s 185,000 warriors was none other than Michael the archangel.—Isaiah 37:36.
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Leolaia
Very nice points all around. I just weighed in on this subject last night from a rather different perspective (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/168595/3121533/post.ashx#3121533), but I can reiterate a few things here that adds to what sacolton and isaacaustin have pointed out: (1) The star and the Magi seperately have an OT exegetical basis in Balaam's prophecy in Numbers 24:17 and Deutero-Isaiah's prophecy in Isaiah 60:1-6. The first passage refers to a star rising in Israel together with a sceptre and it was a common messianic proof-text in the period. The second says that the light of the glory of the Lord will appear over Israel and "nations shall come to your light," bringing the "wealth of nations" and "gold and frankincense" as they "proclaim the praise of the Lord". Since these texts lie in the background of Matthew's account, the author likely construed the star and the Magi as fulfilling divine prophecy and the star as shining with the glory of God. (2) In Jewish tradition, Balaam who gave the prophecy about the star was believed to be a Magi himself, or the founder of the Magi. In the OT story about Balaam, he was a sent by a Gentile king to curse Israel but God used him to instead bless Israel. The Magi in the nativity story have a similar role as Balaam -- they are sent by a Gentile king to find the newborn king (to further, unbeknownst to them, Herod's plan to do harm to the child), but God uses them to bless Jesus and abandon the mission that Herod gave them. Although Herod is the villian in the story, the Magi are instead led to Jesus by God's providence and the star is used to that end. (3) The earliest reference to the star outside Matthew occurs in Ignatius, Ephesians 19 (written c. AD 107-117), and there the star not only appears by the will of God, but it is very means through which the forces of evil were thrown into tumult and "every kind of magic was destroyed". Since "the virginity of Mary was hidden from the prince of this world (i.e. the Devil), as was also her offspring", the star revealing the incarnation of the Lord could not have been sent by the Devil as far as Ignatius was concerned.
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snowbird
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah as the watercourses:
He turneth it whithersoever he will.
What makes WT think that God can't use whomever He chooses to do His bidding?
Sylvia
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snowbird
Yes, Leolaia always does a superb job of, as my estranged Jamaican hubby would say, picking sense out of nonsense.
What a loss to WT!
Sylvia