WANTED ! JW Apologist

by wobble 389 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  wobble

  You are of course right Earnest,the average Dub,I believe does what I did over this issue of 1919,and shoves it to the back of his mind,to be dealt with "later" with all the other awkward questions that come to mind as one lives a life as a Witness.

  But when confronted with the question,Where is the proof for this fantastic claim? They still do not see the significance,that being that if there is no proof and it did not happen,the GB/writers are NOT directed by Holy Spirit today,and JW's are not God's organization.

  So to convince me that they are I need SOME proof,a little like the proof that attested Paul was an Apostle would do.

  Love

  Wobble
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  OUTLAW

  Earnest..First of all I would like to point out we have Mods here.....Your not one of them.....If I point out Bullsh*t because it actually is Bullsh*t it`s not an insult,its simply a fact...........................Secondly..My dog is Nuts!!..No one knows what he is thinking..Least of all you!..LOL!!...................................

  "The WBT$ claims to be the mediator between God and man"

  Why do you continue to repeat this when I have already addressed it ? If you really believe that then provide a reference where they do so."

  .........You addressed it..So what?..That does not make you right..LOL!!...............Would you really have us believe the FDS is not apart of the WBT$?.....Thats Nonsense!.....The FDS is a very important part of the WBT$ Machine.......With the Exception of th 144,000,Jehovahs Witness`s do not have Jesus as thier mediator.......The FDS who are a very important part of the WBT$,is the mediator for Jehovah`s Witness`s............And ..You Know it!!.....

  ...OUTLAW
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  Mary

  Earnest said: Mary : Nothing of what you said above addressed the statement you quoted. I said : Many a Witness, including elders, have said to me that if there were another faith more in harmony with the Bible and the early Christian congregation they would change in an instant. This does not sound to me like people who are adhereing to a faith because something happened in 1919. I am telling you what people have said to me. I presume when you say "What horseshit" you are suggesting either I or they are lieing. Whether or not they have examined other faiths I cannot say but I assure you I am not lieing in relating this to you.

  No, I'm not saying you're lying, because I've had Witnesses say the exact same thing to me. The 'horseshit' I speak of, is the impression that Jehovah's Witnesses have openly studied other religions without bias, and have somehow come to the conclusion that the WTB&TS more closely resembles the first century congregation than any other religion on earth. Witnesses are not allowed to study other religions openly---the only thing they know about other religions is what they read in the pages churned out from Bethel.

  I maintained that JWs in the whole believe they have the truth because they believe that it is more in harmony with the Bible and the early Christian congregation than other faiths, not because of something that may or may not have happened in 1919. Your challenge above is quite irrelevant to this statement. Let me put it to you this way. If you ask your average JW why he believes he has the truth I suggest he will talk about love among the brothers, about the preaching work, about neutrality...various ways to identify the true religion. Whether this is true of JWs is not the point I am making, only that this is how JWs identify themselves as having the truth. He will not talk about 1919 and how Jesus chose these guys as the "Faihful Slave Class" that year.

  You're right, they may not mention it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is absolutely imperative that they believe and accept that Jesus chose this group of men as the "faithful and discreet slave" class in 1919. Any Witness who might believe they have "the truth" but does not accept this doctrine, would be disfellowshipped for "apostasy". My challenge is most certainly not "irrelevant" to your statement, because it's all tied in together with the "unique beliefs" that Witnesses MUST accept.

  One of the reasons that JW's believe they have "the truth" is because they've been fed ridiculous doctrines like the 'Jesus-chose-these-men-in-1919' crap. This is not a 'dead and buried' doctrine---it's still actively being taught and is just one ingredient in the whole hodge-podge mess that makes them believe that they're right and the rest of the world is wrong.
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  BizzyBee

  I firmly believe that the great majority of JWs accept their faith as the truth because they believe that it is more in harmony with the Bible and the early Christian congregation than other faiths.

  Earnest,

  I firmly believe that the great majority of JWs accept their faith as the truth because

  1) they have been brainwashed to believe promises of living forever in a paradise earth or

  2) they are vulnerable and socially marginalised individuals who find love-bombing irresistable or

  3) they are born into it or

  4) they like the idea of being special by belonging to the only faith chosen by God to have His direction

  5) they like the idea of all the people they hate getting slaughtered at Armageddon

  Most of them were not searching for anything except perhaps their other sock when they were approached by JWs. I would venture that 99.9% of JWs have no idea about what is in the Bible or about the early Christians that hasn't been pureed for them in the WT blender and poured down their eager throats.

  Many a Witness, including elders, have said to me that if there were another faith more in harmony with the Bible and the early Christian congregation they would change in an instant.

  I agree with Mary's vernacular - and I don't doubt that this was said to you. Witnesses say some of the darndest things, but they are programmed that way and they have an agenda. These are probably the same Witnesses who would say they 'just love going in field service'. That one doesn't pass the smell test either.

  EDITED
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  tenyearsafter

  Earnest, I agree with your analysis:

  they believe they have the truth because they believe that it is more in harmony with the Bible and the early Christian congregation than other faiths

  The problem with that is ANYONE can believe something is correct, but that doesn't make it right. When Reniaa speaks of JW's having the closest beliefs to what the Bible teaches and how the early Christian congregation was, it is because SHE believes that and not because it is accepted as a fact by the majority. I'm sure C.T. Russell believed that God resided on Pleiades, that he was the FDS, that Jesus started ruling in heaven in 1878, that 1914 would mark the end of the world and that the re-establishment of a new nation of Israel in Palestine was important to achieve. Would any JW accept these things today?...of course not, but at the turn of the 19th century The Bible Students believed they had the truth. Just because you believe it don't make it so!

  Mary is right on when she states that:

  The 'horseshit' I speak of, is the impression that Jehovah's Witnesses have openly studied other religions without bias, and have somehow come to the conclusion that the WTB&TS more closely resembles the first century congregation than any other religion on earth. Witnesses are not allowed to study other religions openly---the only thing they know about other religions is what they read in the pages churned out from Bethel.

  Can any of us, especially the "born ins", honestly say that they truly studied or examined other religions? I know that my knowledge came solely from what I was told through the WT and other JW publications. I would guess that Reniaa's "study" of other religions is via this route rather than any independent examination of belief systems or doctrines. Her fixation on how the cross is used by Christian denominations is a perfect example. The WTBTS has focused on the so-called worship of the cross, when in reality it is not an object of worship outside of Catholic or Orthodox denominations. This type of generalization is very typical of the "facts" promulgated to JW's from the Society. Despite this limited knowledge, JW's make themselves self-proclaimed experts on this and numerous other theological subjects. How can you form a reasonable opinion when you limit yourself to one source of information??

  I have heard the "if you can show me a religion that is closer to the Bible than JW's, I'll change to it", but it rings hollow. It falls into the same category as "where else would we go if we left the Truth?" To provide an answer to either of the these statements you would have to look at what options are out there...and we know that is a JW no-no. You would immediately be identified as spiritually weak or apostate. Since the fear of repercussion is so high, they would never look to see if there was a better alternative.

  I agree with BizzyBee:

  Witnesses say some of the darndest things, but they are programmed that way and they have an agenda. These are probably the same Witnesses who would say they 'just love going in field service'. That one doesn't pass the smell test either.
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  passwordprotected

  @ Earnest;

  "They believe they have the truth because they believe that it is more in harmony with the Bible and the early Christian congregation than other faiths, not because of something that may or may not have happened in 1919."

  Question - do you believe that JWs are more in harmony with the Bible and early Christians than other faiths?

  Before you answer, it's probably important to differentiate between faith and religion. In the 1st C, the Christians (as they were then known - not 'Jehovah's Witnesses') had a faith, not a religion. The Bible also promotes, particularly in the New Testament, a faith not a religion. Remember, Jesus fulfilled the Jewish religion and replaced it with himself ("take this cup, it means my blood...take this bread, it means my body", etc). Followers of Jesus had faith, not religion.

  So, which of the following do Jehovah's Witnesses have in common, or are in greater harmony, with the early Christian congregation than other faiths (and I assume you mean other Christian denominations such as Baptists, Methodists, Brethren etc)?

  1. followers of Christ became known as 'Christians', not Jehovah's Witnesses (Acts 11:24)
  2. followers of Christ declared the good news of 'the Lord Jesus' (Acts 11:21), this good news was all about Jesus' death and resurrection (Acts 4:33, 1 Cor 2:2), not about billions of people being snuffed out by Jehovah at Armageddon [sidenote: Armageddon is only mentioned once in the Bible and never in the Gospels or in any of the epistles to the the 1st C Christian congregations, therefore how important was Armageddon to Christians in the 1st C?]
  3. followers of Christ gave him the same honour as they gave the Father (John 5:22,23) and went so far as to call Jesus God and even gave him worship, as do the angels in heaven (John 9:38, John 20:28, Heb 1:6)
  4. followers of Christ realised that the Holy Spirit would teach them all they would need to know about God (John 14:26, Acts 1:8)
  5. followers of Christ understood, believed and preached that there is only one mediator between God and men and that through this mediator alone can one receive forgiveness of sins and that this mediator is accessible to all (1 Tim 2:5,6)
  6. followers of Christ put faith in his name, extolled his name, preached his name, believed in his name and cried out in his name. They bore his name and preached his name. They did not put faith in, extoll, preach, believe in or cry out in/to the name 'Jehovah'. They recognised that the name Jesus was elevated above every name and in that name alone could one receive salvation and eternal life (see previous point about only one mediator) (John 14:34, Acts 3:16, Acts 4:12,Acts 4:18, Romans 10:9,10)
  7. followers of Christ saw him as 'the Truth'
  8. followers of Christ did not claim to have knowledge of his return. Yes, they wondered when it would be, but Jesus put them straight in Acts 1:7

  Taking the above 8 points alone, would you agree they accurately reflect the faith and beliefs of the early Christian congregation? If so, which of them do Jehovah's Witnesses harmonise with the most? Using the name Jesus above any other name? Actually being allowed to have Christ as their mediator? Perhaps giving Jesus honour and worship? Or maybe relying solely on the Holy Spirit as their teacher and counsellor? Or maybe in not claiming 'divinely revealed' knowledge of Christ's return?

  I think these are important points to chew over, especially if in a public forum a person is intent on defending the beliefs of JWs while comparing them to the beliefs of the 1st C Christian Church.
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  leavingwt

  Earnest:

  If you're agreeable, I would like to know your answers to these two questions.

  1. Are Jehovah's Witnesses God's organization?

  2. If Armageddon arrives tomorrow, will any self-desribed Christians of other denominations survive?

  Thank You,

  LWT
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  tenyearsafter

  I believe Earnest, unlike Reniaa, is more of "Devil's Advocate" for JW's basis for their theology rather than claiming he personally agrees with JW theology. Earnest has said in earlier posts he is more "Agnostic for Jehovah" than JW.

  I like your questions Password and leavingwt, but I believe they would be better asked of true apologists like Reniaa (unfortunately, they are not likely to be addressed directly on a point by point basis)... I would still be interested in Earnest's thoughts on my points on believing truth in my comments above.
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  BizzyBee

  Passwordprotected, Tenyearsafter, LeavingWT, Mary, Besty, Wobble, IsaacAustin, QuietlyLeaving and even sometimes OUTLAW:

  You all make me proud to be an apostate!
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  quietlyleaving

  the cross is a strange symbol because I guess it functions primarily as a religious symbol but also could function as an atheistic symbol of man standing up-right with his arms outstretched in surrender or in welcome or to obstruct passage. I think on some level whether we are born in or not symbols do generate mixed messages and can be a vehicle for making us think contrary to the dominant way of thinking. I think to an extent born-ins do pick up on such contradictions and when the time is right they break free. I'm just saying this so that born-ins don't feel that they are too alienated to make a fresh start.

  whereas in contrast I wonder if some of this is going on in your case Reniaa when you say stuff like Jehovahs witnesses are the closet to the truth. You've been away from JWs for I think 10 years now but perhaps they represent a simpler, purer way of life compared to what the "world" has to offer and compared to what you now see as your dominant way of life. But it is worth remembering that the cross as symbol of man stands at the heart of Jehovahs witness life and beliefs. The welcome your surrender will also function as an obstruction to you and your daughter because you will find that jehovah is forever demanding of a cross like (in its religious sense) sacrifice from you.

  So if you are thinking I must oppose the cross as much as possible maybe your heart is telling you to stay away from so called all embracing truths to ground because life can be addressed by adopting a more wave like shifting perspective that is open to change.