Therefore why even follow the GB or the elders?
And when the Governing Body changes its mind...
by passwordprotected 45 Replies latest jw friends
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StAnn
LLRyder, the problem isn't with what "elders" say. The problem is what the GB has printed in their literature. Oh, I wish I had a better memory. The WT says that the GB "channels" God. People are disfellowshipped for disagreeing with the GB. Then, when the GB comes out and has "new light," the DF'd people aren't apologized to or reinstated because now the problem is that they ran ahead of the bloody organization. Often times the "new light" is old light that is reintroduced and then later recanted, such as the "generation"! If the GB channels God, why don't they get doctrine right? The Dubs always say that Jehovah is a God of order, not of disorder, but the WTS and the GB are certainly not examples of that. Flip flop.
The GB lies in the WTS literature. When called on the carpet about it, they lie some more. They DF people for smoking while they own stock in cigarette companies (Phillip Morris). They have Fred Franz, their president, saying Armageddon will come in 1975 and, when it doesn't, they lie about it and deny it. They fill out forms every year vowing to support the work of the UN so they can be an NGO and then lie to the rank and file JWs, saying they are so stupid that they thought they had to do these things to get a library card for the UN, even though the UN clearly denies that. They compromised their neutrality for a library card?
You really need to read Crisis of Conscience. Do you know about this book? A member of the GB, Ray Franz, an anointed JW, left the GB because of how unscriptural their conduct and teachings were. After they repeatedly slandered him, he finally wrote a book telling his side. If you want to believe that they are "just men who make mistakes," read Crisis of Conscience. You will discover they are actually power hungry egomaniacs who couldn't care less about you or any other r&f Dub in the world but only about their ability to control you and get rich off of you.
Welcome to JWN. You will learn a lot here that will shock you.
StAnn
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cameo-d
They have persuaded people to give up their only life for shifting sand.
HB
It's call human sacrifice.
Every primitive religion has it's own spin on how to do it.
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parakeet
A few years ago, a poster (can't remember if it was AlanF or Farkel) wrote about hearing an elder say that he would roll a peanut down the street with his nose if the WTS told him to do it.
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passwordprotected
Oh LL Ryder...we've all seen arguments like yours on this discussion board many times before. "Imperfect men make mistakes! Shock-a-rooney!!" The thing is, Jesus at no point instructed us to look to, seek divine instruction from or blindly follow imperfect men.
Jesus said;
- come to me if you're loaded down
- I am the way
- I am the truth
- I am the life
- everlasting life comes from me
- I am the bread of life
Jesus was also the Word of God made flesh. And Jesus said that God's word is truth.
So, Jesus is who people should go to for all of their spiritual needs. There is no record of Jesus saying that at some point the spiritual needs of people would be satisfied by imperfect mistake-makers on earth.
What I find incredible about Jehovah's Witnesses is that they allow themselves to be robbed of a relationship with the risen Lord Jesus by the Watch Tower Society (who freely admit to not being inspired and not having any more spiritual insights than you or me) and then will happily defend the Watch Tower Society for doing so!
The Bible says in John 1:12 that to all who accepted Jesus and believed in his name was given the authority to become children of God. The authority! And what do Jehovah's Witnesses do? They allow the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society to say, "no, that's not for you", and then they come onto internet forums to defend the theft. Mental.
You talk about the 'light getting brighter' and the Governing Body clarifying things. Here's the incredible thing, LL, Jesus is the light of God's truth and he never needs to get brighter; his teachings have never changed, his love has never wavered and he offers us the chance to know him through the Bible. And guess what, he even sends us the Spirit of Truth from the Father to teach us everything we need to know.
Jesus always cut out the middle man. Because he is the middle man, not the Governing Body!!
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moomanchu
LL Ryder - Wow
it was not his position to do so and an in Jehovah's due time it would be clarified....
Why wasn't it his position to do so????
This phrase "Jehovah's due time" irritates me.
It should be in "Watchtower's due time."
Don't blame Jehovah for incorrect teachings.
I was were you are.
Still kinda scares me.... even though I know why you are saying what you are saying.
Imagine how "the worldly" people must have viewed me.
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longlineryder
I know that this screed will not be the last post on this topic..... several of you will, in all likelihood, see to that.
What many of you may fail to understand is this: Throughout Biblical history (NOW..... for this to have ANY meaning, you have to BELIEVE the words in the Bible), God had A way.... IN THE SINGULAR......
let's start with Noah who God commissioned to build an ark and save mankind and the animals (the unicorn apparently was not a real animal..... ;-)....) ONE ark..... not several.....
God later commissioned Abraham to leave Chaldea and move to the area that would become the Promised Land..... the promise went to Abraham's son Isaac- NOT to Ishmael or any of the other children Abraham had with Keturah (did I spell that correctly?) and it was not jointly received by all of them either.... the promise continued through to Jacob- NOT to Esau...... and again it was not split and received by Isaac's sons jointly.....
Later, in Egypt, God due time came and he raised up Moses to be the leader ..... Aaron, his brother, was bestowed with the designation of high priest...... Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt...... Moses and Aaron were the target s of many murmuring campaigns by these Israelites- the most serious of which was arguably the incident of Korah, Dathan and Abiram along with 250 others (apparently all of them being chieftains and otherwise prominet heads of families, clans, tribes etc amongst the Israelites.... we know what happened to them.... Moses' brother, Aaron and his sister Miriam at one time also challenged his authority.... for which she was struck with leprosy and, if I am not mistaken, this cost Aaron his right to passage into the Promised Land...... but... ONLY ONE leader ..... throughout the records of the nation of Israel, there was always only ONE channel of information, authority etc. .... on the occasions when there was more than one prophet at a time, the were NOT in competition with each other...... after the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, and the exile ended, God commissioned only one group to go back all others who went later JOINED that one group.... they did NOT set up competing spheres of authority.....
Centuries later, only ONE Jesus was sent to the earth (and John the Baptist who was, in his own right an important figure in this event, acknowledged that it was Jesus, NOT himself, that his disciples should now follow) ...... let's have a look at some of the events of Jesus recorded life on earth.....
Jesus was exremely able as a communicator and, due to his postion as the son of God now on earth, apparently had divine intervention by way of having miraculously received all written word up to that time embedded in his memory..... he did not attend religious schools as the scribes and pharisees did... (as alluded to by the apostle Paul)..... all of Jesus apostles were looked upon with disdain by the Jewish religious leaders as being ordinary and unlettered (which is widely accepted as meaning not educated)...... these are the apostles we are talking about here .... who would later become the governing body of Jehovahs Witnesses of the era....
Jesus, at times, spoke in parables and symbolically..... at times his words were not understood...... sometimes they were understood and missed by them .... Jesus said words to the effect that unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood you will not be saved..... many people reasoned that these words were shocking and who could follow this?...... resulting those people leaving being his followers..... He asked his apostles if they too were leaving..... they replied with words to the effect that where would they go to and jesus had words of life..... would anyone construe that this was because they understood the meaning of Jesus' words?..... I would think not..... but again..... I believe that they knew that in due time the meaning would be revealed..... (oh... there is that due time stuff again.... I know some of you don't like that term) ..... how about the apostles having heated arguments (yes, in plural!) amongst themselves as to who was the greatest amongst them? I have already stated in my earlier post that they did not understand that the promised kingdom restoration was not going to be earthly nor that it was not going to happen at that time..... the event of Pentecost 33CE dispelled that...... they received miraculous gifts at that time as well..... speaking multiple languages and apparently superhuman amounts of knowledge... and specifically, Peter received the keys of the kingdom, which, when God's due time was right, he received divine instruction to use them.....
The apostle Paul, a person who, in his earlier years was in opposition to Jesus' apostles and this new religion (and who is described in Acts as a person, who at one time, was breathing threat and murder against the Christian congregation), became one of the foremost proclaimers of Gods way..... in several of the Bible books written by and about Paul, it is clear that Paul endured opposition....... and NOT just from outside of the congegation- from within it too.... words to the effect that that although Paul's writings seemed powerful, Paul, when present, came across as being weak...... Paul referred to some of these ones as SUPERFINE APOSTLES....... I always liked that term..... there were also the accounts of Judaizers amongst Christians of that era- the ones who opinionated (as if it was scriptural fact) that all Gentile adherents to Christianity had to get circumcised and adhere also to the Mosaic Law.... now, Paul, by virtue of being an Apostle, was ALSO a member of the GOVERNING BODY of the day.... the account of the circucision issue taken to Jerusalem shows that, at first, not all members of the Governing Body were in agreement on this issue..... but we all know that they did come to a united decision on it ...... incidentally, there was ONLY ONE governing body at that time..... in Jerusalem..... Paul also wrote words to the effect that after his passing, oppressive wolves would enter into the congegation and would not treat the flock with kindness...... it is what history has shown to have happened.....
The writing of James also speak of the need for works along with one's faith.....
Now , let's fast forward to the 20th and 21st centuries..... and look at the situation today...... how many organizations on earth are involved in announcing and preaching Gods Kingdom?...... Like the question in the "Live Forever" book asked, and I paraphrase here, if a person constantly spoke to you of Jehovah, the Bible, a future paradise and other similar topics, what religion would you conclude that he was?
Now, I look at a lot of the drivel that is posted on this website, I look at numerous items that are well written, articulate and thoughtful although not necessarily in harmony with the Bible and other nosensical postings, I am firmly of the belief that, even if the Governing Body has gotten things wrong over the years, there is NOBODY on this site that has enough credibility for me to want to follow them instead...... I keep thinking of Jesus' apostles here ..... the incident I described above about the eating of Jesus' flesh and drinking his blood.... personally, I will wait on clarification ...
I know that what drives a lot of the mindsets to post many of the things written is that once you have been exposed to the teachings of JWs and you have been an active witness, you really can't go back to the world..... deep down inside, most of you know that there really is little, if anything of substance in the world to go back to..... the pursuit of material possessions is about as close to anything of value that the world offers.... that is sort of my inclination, if not my situation..... the propounding of a lot of these opinions is, in all likelihood, one way of telling oneself why he or she left......
Again, all of you, take care
L L Ryder
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passwordprotected
Sorry, LL, I don't have the heart to read all those many words and paragraphs of WTS apology.
However, why would Jesus choose the Watch Tower Society, founded by Russell who was involved in the occult practices of numerology and pyramidoloy, to reveal his 'due times'?
Thanks.
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isaacaustin
LL...one way?
You are right- there is one way- singular. That is Jesus.
As far as God only working thru one org- that is wrong as wrong can be. Cults such as the JW leadership preach it to their own self-serving advantage. God has always worked thru individuals. Enoch- what org did he belong to? Enoch walked with the true God. What org did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob belong to? Even in the days of the nation of Israel God constantly rose up individuals to rebuke the nations of Israel and Judah . What would happen if a JW followed this course?
You probably will say Jesus formed a new org that one must be part of to follow God. Jesus disagrees with you. He clearly said in response to his disciple who wanted to rebuke someone who was not following them that those who are not against him are for him.
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isaacaustin
Why would Jesus have, upon releasing the Internat'l Bible STudent's leadership from babylonish captivity due to their being unclean, release them and appoint them to handle his earthly affairs when they came out of captivity just as unclean.
Does a JW who gets reinstated get appointed to elder upon reinstatement?