Jesus not crucified on torture stake. Impossible!

by sacolton 250 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  reniaa

  leolaia your research is interesting but it doesn't change the fact that stauros is a word that makes no assumption of crosspiece unlike cross which does. that romans used execution methods that involve crosspieces as well as ones that didn't is a given.

  But the original bible wording stauros which any historian will admit means stake/pale as you yourself admit makes no revelation of crosspiece it is a word more about the way Jesus died not the shape of his death instrument and that is the problem. You not only have to prove Jesus definitely died on a cross which is impossible but also that the writers intended a shape to be important.

  All four writers of his death and references to it afterwards give no indication to it's shape at all it is completely in shadow biblically and should stay that way to be biblically true. I will say no more since I think my points are all well documented.
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  reniaa

  mrs jones ane ex bethel I wasn't comparing Jesus to a snake lol I was quoting Jesus own words which again I put here.

  John 3:14
  Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,

  Numbers 21:8
  The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

  Numbers 21:9
  So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

  the comparison is on how the snake was lifted up and that was on a pole.

  you can try and use cognitive dissonance on this scripture but to me it is a clear indication of Jesus predicting that he will die on a stake without crosspiece.

  and on that note I am finished lol.
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  AllTimeJeff

  You know Leolaia, I meant to put Narkissos in that sentence and didn't. I can't tell you how cool it is that you two are here on this board...

  Reinaa, I think that lacking the compelling evidence a Polaroid would provide, there is compelling reasons to believe that the cross was the traditional instrument of Jesus death. Even if there is a possibility that an upright stake was used, it is AT BEST a possibility. The dogmatic stand of Jehovah's Witnesses on this matter and the importance that they attach to this supposed difference speak more about Jehovah's Witnesses then the impliment by which the traditional Jesus was executed on.

  After I left JW's, one of the beliefs I kept was that Jesus probably died on an upright stake. The only reason I did was that I never looked at the evidence and scholarship behind why the cross is used. Suffice to say, that evidence has been presented in overwhelming fashion on this particular thread.

  The motive behind the change to a teaching that Jesus died on an upright pole is strictly for publicity and marketing. Rutherford did it to be different from traditional churches. It provided him an opportunity to throw stones at organized religion. It provided a point of difference, so he could make his claim. To say that only satanically controlled religions would have the cross is just a straw man argument.

  Truth is, again, no one knows for sure.... But there is at best, from the JW point of view, absolutely no reason to rule out the possibility of the cross. To say it is satanic is purely a ploy by JW's to be different, not correct.
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  isaacaustin

  Reniaa....how about direct answers to the other direct questions asked you on this thread?
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  reniaa

  If it's dogmatic to keep to original wording then so be it but then the opposition ignoring the original lack of any reference to a crosspiece is also dogmatic.

  Tradition is not the bible

  Matthew 15:3
  Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

  and to show how accurate Jesus was on predicting deaths look at what he said on peters...

  John 21:18 (New International Version)

  18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."

  so here he was indicating a death on a stake with a crosspiece unlike his own.
• 

  drew sagan

  The motive behind the change to a teaching that Jesus died on an upright pole is strictly for publicity and marketing. Rutherford did it to be different from traditional churches. It provided him an opportunity to throw stones at organized religion. It provided a point of difference, so he could make his claim. To say that only satanically controlled religions would have the cross is just a straw man argument.

  Exactly. It helped Rutherford advance a world view which rests on the idea that all religious systems (outside of his own) where full of "corrupt" teachings. Of course, when he created doctrines because of mistakes, problems, and downright quackery those are simply "bible based", no questions asked. You see things how you want to see them.

  Reniaa....how about direct answers to the other direct questions asked you on this thread?

  That suggests she is actually here to do more than just annoy people.
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  AllTimeJeff

  Reinaa, your argument has already been addressed. Did you see that clearly, stauros can mean a cross or upright stake? And that very frequently, it meant a cross in antiquity?

  Question answered!
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  sir82

  Question for reniaa:

  Assume for the moment that you are correct regarding the meaning of "stauros".

  What Greek word would the Gospel writers have used if they had intended, instead, to indicate that Jesus had died on a cross and not a pole?
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  isaacaustin

  My understanding is that stauros in its simplest form means upright pole...but can also mean a variety of similar structures, including the cross. While we can not dogmatically claim Jesus was hung on a cross we equally can not claim that he wasn't. However, Scriptures and history do seem to lend to his being impaled on a cross.
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  isaacaustin

  My understanding is that stauros in its simplest form means upright pole...but can also mean a variety of similar structures, including the cross. While we can not dogmatically claim Jesus was hung on a cross we equally can not claim that he wasn't. However, Scriptures and history do seem to lend to his being impaled on a cross.