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Jesus not crucified on torture stake. Impossible!
by sacolton 250 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Leolaia
Here's a collection of statements by Greek writers that give some indication about the form of the stauros, whether in general or in specific instances:
"When you have undressed in a bath and stretched yourself out like men who have been crucified (ekteinas seauton hós hoi estaurómenoi), you may be massaged on this side and the other (enthen kai enthen), and the attendant may stand by and say, 'Take him away and wipe the table' " (Epictetus, Dissertationes 3.26.22; Century: A.D. I).
In this text, the author is making a general comparison of the posture of athletes being massaged with the typical posture of those who are crucified. The description is suggestive of crucifixion with a patibulum, with the arms stretched out hither and thither, i.e. out to one side and also out to the other.
"The soldiers out of rage and hatred amused themselves by nailing their prisoners in different postures (allon allói skhémati, or "from one form to another"), and so great was their number that space could not be found for the crosses nor crosses for the bodies (tois staurois kai stauroi tois sómasin)" (Josephus, De Bello Judaico 5.451-452; Century: A.D. I).
Here the victims are described as positioned on the stauros in a variety of styles or forms (Greek skhéma), to suit the sadistic amusement of the executing soldiers. Since the body cannot be arranged in a variety of ways on a linear stake, this statement suggests a stauros that allows the limbs to be nailed in different postures.
"Being crucified (staurousthai) is auspicious for all seafarers. For the cross (ho stauros), like a ship, is made of wood and nails, and the ship's mast resembles a cross (hé katartios autou homoia esti stauró)" (Artemidorus Daldianus, Oneirocritica 2.53; Century: A.D. II).
This is a general statement about the form of the stauros, indicating that it typically resembled (homoios, "is similar to") the shape of the mast of a ship. The mast consisted of an upright pole and a transverse yardarm. This suggests that the use of the patibulum was very common, such that the average person dreaming about being crucified would picture himself on a cross shaped like this.
The eighteen is I and H, you have Jesus, and because the cross in the T (ho stauros en tó T) was destined to convey grace, he says 'and three hundred.' So he reveals Jesus in the two letters and the cross (ton stauron) in the other one.... The Spirit says to the heart of Moses that he should make a symbol of the cross (poiésé tupon staurou) and of him who was destined to suffer because, he is saying, unless they place their hope in him, war shall be waged against them forever. Therefore Moses piled one shield upon another in the midst of the battle and standing high above them all he stretched out his hands (exeteinen tas kheiras), and so Israel was again victorious. But whenever he lowered them, the men began to be killed. Why so? So that they might learn that they cannot be saved unless they place their hope in him. And again in another prophet he says: 'All day long I have stretched out my hands (exepetasa tas kheiras mou) to a disobedient people who oppose my righteous way.' Again Moses makes a symbol (poiei tupon) of Jesus" (Barnabas 9:8, 12:2-5; Century: A.D. II).
Here the shape of the stauros is explicitly compared to that of the Greek letter T and stretching out the hands to the side is considered a "representation" (tupon) of the stauros. This suggests again that the patibulum was rather typically used by the Romans.
"Let him be crucified (anestaurosthai) half way up this precipice, with his hands outstretched from this crag to the one opposite (ekpetastheis tó kheire apo toutou tou krémnou pros ton enantion)...This will make a very handy cross (ho stauros genoito)... Come, your right hand (tén dexian)! Clamp it down, Hephaestus and in with the nails; bring down the hammer with a will. Now the other (tén heteran); make sure work of that too" (Lucian, Prometheus 1.12, 19, 2.3-8; Century: A.D. II).
This is another explicit description of the stauros involving the arms stretched to the side and nailed separately to the cross.
"Men weep and bewail their lot, and curse Cadmus with many curses for putting Tau into the alphabet; for they say that their tyrants, taking his body as a model (somati phasi akolouthésantas) and imitating his shape (mimésamenous autou to plasma), have fashioned similar-looking timbers (skhémati toioutói xula) to crucify (anaskolopizein) men upon them, and the vile device is even named (eponumian) after him (i.e. sTAUros). Now, with all these crimes upon him, does not Tau deserve to die many times over? As for me, I think the only just thing to do would be to punish Tau on what has been made in his own shape (tó skhemati tó hautou), for the cross (ho stauros) owes its existence to Tau, but its name to man (hupo de anthrópón onomazetai)" (Lucian, Lis Consonantium, 12).
Probably the most detailed and explicit statement anywhere in non-Christian writings at the time. The "shape" (skhema, plasma) of the stauros is that of the letter Tau which also lent its name to the device (i.e. sTAUros). This shows that without a doubt, Lucian regarded the typical form of the stauros as containing a patibulum.
"The lamb, when it is cooked, is roasted and fashioned into the form of the cross (skhématizomenon homoiós tó skhémati tou staurou). For one upright spit is transfixed (heis orthios obeliskos diaperonatai) right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back (heis palin kata to metaphrenon), to which are attached the limbs (prosartóntai hai kheires) of the lamb" (Justin Martyr, Dialogue 40.3.3-7; Century: A.D. II).
The shape (skhéma) of the stauros is here compared to the intersection of two wooden spits, one which goes upward from the lower parts to the head and the other which goes across the back to which the limbs are attached. This clearly presumes the use of the patibulum in crucifixion.
"No one can assert or prove that the horns of a rhinoceros represent any other matter or form (skhématos) than that of the cross (tupou hos ton stauron). For one of its beams stands upright (orthion to hen esti xulon), the highest extremity of which is raised like a horn when the other beam is fitted onto it (hotan to allo xulon prosarmosthé), and the ends appear on both sides (hekateróthen ta akra phainétai) like horns joined to the first horn (hós kerata tó heni kerati parezeugmena). And the part that is fixed in the middle, on which those who are crucified are supported (eph' epokhountai hoi stauroumenoi), also projects like a horn conjoined and fixed with the other horns" (Justin Martyr, Dialogue 91.2; Century: A.D. II).
This is another depiction of the "form" (skhéma) of the stauros as consisting of two beams (hen xulon and allo xulon), one standing upright and the other fitted at the top on a horn-like projection with both ends of the transverse beam projecting from this "horn" like two other horns to the side. The seat, or sedile, on which the crucified person sits in the middle of the cross is also depicted as horn-like. It is possible that the Romans made the seat as an uncomfortable thorn-like projection to increase the torture.
"Reflect on all things in the universe and consider whether they could be governed or held together without this figure (tou skhématos toutou). For the sea cannot be traversed unless its trophy, which is called a sail (ho kaleitai histion), remain fast in the ship. The land is not plowed without it; similarly diggers and mechanics do not do their work without tools of this form (média tón to skhéma touto ekhontón). The human figure (anthrópeion skhéma) differs from the irrational animals precisely in this, that the man stands erect (orthon einai) and can stretch out his hands (ektasin kheirón), and has on his face, stretched out from the forehead his nose through which goes breath for the living creature, and this exhibits precisely the figure of the stauros (skhéma tou staurou)" (Justin Martyr, Apology 1.55.1-4; Century: A.D. III).
Yet another comparison from this author of the shape of the stauros with objects in nature and technology, including a ship's mast, tools like ploughshares, and the form of the human body when one stands up straight and stretches out the hands.
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shamus100
You know the thread has hit a real low when the ol' paganism starts coming out.
Paganism: the ultimate evil. Even worse than beating babies.
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babel on
its been a while since anyone has mentioned it , (watchtower jewelry) but how about the stupid lapel badges that all jws are suppose to wear at conventions of course they do not feature the cross as that might detract away from the glory of the watchtower organization and remind someone of the true savior Jesus, it however does proudly feature you guessed it the TOWER. In fact every badge I have ever seen has featured this graven Image, in fact the kingdom ministry encourages witnesses to proudly wear these badges after the convention
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Earnest
Thanks for the depth of your research sacolton/colton. It motivated me to read again the chapter on 'The Staurogram' in Hurtado's book 'The Earliest Christian Artifacts' to which you refer. Amidst the discussion he refers to a passage in Justin's First Apology (ch.60) where he writes of Plato's doctrine of the [stauros].
And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timæus of Plato, where he says, “He placed him crosswise [lit. he impressed him as a χιασμα , i.e., in the form of the letter χ ] upon the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, “If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby.” And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is handed down that the people thus escaped death. Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the [stauros], but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe.
Now regarding the shape of the stauros Hurtado says that in light of Justin's earlier comments (in ch.55) regarding symbols of the stauros, as quoted below...
For consider all the things in the world, whether without this form they could be administered or have any community. For the sea is not traversed except that trophy which is called a sail abide safe in the ship; and the earth is not ploughed without it: diggers and mechanics do not their work, except with tools which have this shape. And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended, and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called the nose, through which there is respiration for the living creature; and this shows no other form than that of the [stauros].
...Justin almost certainly had some T-shaped object in mind here as well in claiming that Moses' brass object was "the figure of a [stauros]". How could this be as the account in Numbers says that the brass serpent was placed on a pole. Hurtado notes that in the LXX (which Justin would have used) Moses places the brass serpent "upon a sign" [epi semeiou] which, like stauros, is about the nature of the instrument rather than its shape.
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OUTLAW
Reniaa................Lol show me a watchtower advocating bothers wearing them..Do you mean Brothers,Genius??..LOL!!....LOL!!..4 Door Cars are the only acceptable vehicle if you a good Jehovah`s Witness..But..You don`t see any advertisements for 4 Door Vehicles in the Watchtower ..The WBT$ doesn`t advertise for anyone accept the United Nations!!..That`s a fact!!..LOL!!...........................maybe I won't be laughing at this foolishness on wt jewelry...It`s not just WBT$ Jewelry..As "babel on" pointed out ,WBT$ Convention Badges also have the WBT$ Logo on them.....The WBT$ prints thier Idol for all good Jehovah`s Witness`s to wear at Assemblys.....You`ve pretty much shown youself to be an Idiot on this thread..Not many people care about what an Idiot laugh`s at..LOL!!
you guys really like to scrape the barrel don't you?..You make a good point..Your here..LOL!!....................... and nj I would need photographic evidence of your brothers wearing the jewelry, words are easy but proof is harder...I`d like to see a Brain Scan to,see if you really have one!..!!............................Reniaa..If your going to cut and paste some one elses work,you really should give them Credit..Leolaia was able to pick up on your Plagerism with no trouble at all.......................................................................................Purps..Thanks for the Pic!......................................................Still_in74..Thank You!..................................................................OUTLAW
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Leolaia
Hey, I just found a new reference to crucifixion with a patibulum that I had not noticed previously:
"For this treachery, he [Bomiclar] was fastened to a patibulum (patibulo suffixus est) by the Carthaginians in the middle of the Forum, such that the same spot that had formerly been distinguished as the scene of his honors might also bear testimony of his punishment. But Bomiclar bore the cruelty of the citizens with such fortitude that he inveighed against the injustice of the Carthaginians from the top of his cross (de summa cruce) as if speaking from a tribunal.... After uttering these charges with a loud voice to a large assembly of the people, he expired" (Justinus, Historiarum Philippicarum, 22.7.8-10).
I can add this to all my other examples of crucifixion involving the use of crossbeams.
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jws
Only got through 3 pages so far, but have a few comments. Sorry if they've been covered in subsequent posts.
1. Words can have multiple meanings. When the authors of the day use these terms, they are generally understood. It sounds like the Romans used an execution device with a crossbeam. If that was commonly referrred to by the word 'stauros', people in the day would have thought of something with a crossbeam. If I said the colonel climbed into his jeep and drove away, most people would picture an army-style jeep and that's what I would intend the statement to mean. But, a Jeep could refer to a variety of vehicles made by Jeep, only some of which even resemble army jeeps.
2. Why does a crossbeam negate a sign over his head? It would seem to depend on whether it was in the form of a T or a t.
3. If his arms were above his head and had a sign, how tall would that have had to have been? Let's say he's 5.5 feet tall. Maybe his arms would stretch an extra 1.5 feet above his body. So the "stake" had to be at least 7 feet long. Then you need to plant it in the ground. 3 feet? And have something left at the top to put a sign? Another foot? So, like 11 feet? That seems an unlikely thing to drag along and could be kind of heavy. Carrying only a crossbeam would be half the weight.
4. For efficiency, I think the Romans would have used a permanent upright piece. Ever dig fence posts? It's hard to dig an exact sized hole. So Jesus drags this thing over to where he is to be executed. Is the hole dug at that point? Jerusalem doesn't look like the place that has nice moist soil that's easy to dig in. So he has to wait for the hole to be dug? Or is the hole already there from previous executions? So then they have to fit this thing into the hole. If the hole's too small, you dig out more. If it's too big, you have to fill it in and then it's going to shift a bit and be wobbly. A reusable stake would still be hard to pull out of the ground. You'd probably have to dig it out. If it was one upright piece permanently standing upright, what did Jesus carry with him? The Romans were smart and would have devised something better. A permanent upright and a crosspiece that could be hoisted onto it. And they did just that at least in other cases.
5. Moses attached a snake to a pole. Seems to me, it it were attached vertically to the pole, it would be hard to tell snake from pole. Maybe the bronze snake was attached horizontally. Hmmm.... What shape would that make?
6. A cross is a pagan symbol? What does a long upright pole signify? A penis. Which, at least in modern paganism, signifies fertility. So was Jesus executed on a pagan cross or a pagan penis?
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Dagney
Sorry, have to confirm on the tower logo usage...
Of course there is WT "tower" jewlery! And tower logos imprinted on many many things. Did you not ever see the numerous catalogues in which to procure these things? Tower imprinted briefcases, book covers, pins, cufflinks, literature holders...very common, just like a cross is used as a logo.
Most popular are tie tacks. The one I hated the most when I was in was the tetragrammaton tie tack and bumper sticker. A hallowed name indeed.
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purplesofa
Very good write up here at freeminds.