Jesus not crucified on torture stake. Impossible!

by sacolton 250 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Mary
    Mary

    Thank god for all the posters with brains on here who have addressed some excellent points. Reniaa of course, will continue to blind herself to the obvious, and will continue to ignore all the rational questions and evidence that clearly shows that Jesus was put to death on a two-beamed instrument----not a single pole as the WTS likes to promote. The most pathetic thing is that if the WT decided to change this doctrine tomorrow and concede that Jesus DID die on a cross, Reniaa would simply blindly accept their interpretation and be thrilled at the 'new light'-----evidence that she is NOT 'following the bible' as she claims, but is in reality, following 'man made traditions', even when they make no damn sense whatsoever.

    Here's a question I thought of related to this subject: Did the Romans execute their victims on the cross because it was a "pagan" symbol, or simply because it was highly effective in prolonging the torture? I'm guessing it was the latter, but maybe Leolaia or Narkissos would know the answer to this......

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    Reniaa...you say

    1) Why did Jesus never pray using Jehovah's name...especially when he instructed his followers to address their prayers to the Father (no mention of Jehovah) in the model prayer at Matthew 6: 9-13?

    I'm failing to understand the point of this question If Jesus directs us to pray to the father which is clearly identified as YHWH, he is not saying the word father but he is saying 'pray to my father'? again is this somehow trying to invalidate the hebrew scriptures and their use of YHWH?

    That really isn't answering my question, it is dismissing it by asking another question. I didn't say one word about invalidating YHWH as God's name in the hebrew scriptures. I asked why Jesus never once addressed his Father by the name YHWH. Do you have scriptures that directly name the Father as YHWH?

    I guess I am off point of the thread here, so I apologize, but it just is fascinating how Reniaa can avoid clear and direct answers. I think you missed your calling girl...you should have been a politician!!

  • Colton
    Colton

    The idea of carrying a 11 foot pole is ridiculous! The cross-beam itself would be more realistic.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Yes, she will dodge questions by running...when called on it she will rant off irrelevant info and try to attack you to make your motive impure....and put another question to you to put you on the defensive.....just like a good jdub

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Here's a question I thought of related to this subject: Did the Romans execute their victims on the cross because it was a "pagan" symbol, or simply because it was highly effective in prolonging the torture? I'm guessing it was the latter, but maybe Leolaia or Narkissos would know the answer to this......

    Cicero called the cross the "ultimate and extreme punishment for slaves (servitutis extremum summumque supplicium)" and "the cruelest and most disgusting penalty (crudelissimum taeterrimumque supplicium)" (In Verrem, 2.5.165, 169). I doubt they were aiming for any meaningful symbolism in an object that was so reviled. That's just how the apparatus was put together. In the fourth century BC the Phoenicians fought wars against Rome and the Romans encountered their Eastern form of mass execution involving the hoisting up of people up onto poles while still alive. The Romans started doing to same against the Phoenicians. But they had their own native form of punishment that the Phoenicians also imitated. Since ancient times, the Romans would execute some people by taking a patibulum from a doorway or a furca used in wagons and place it on the shoulders of a condemned slave and then force that slave to carry it throughout the city while whipping his body; then sometimes the slave would be whipped to death. Here are descriptions of this punishment pertaining to the time before the Punic Wars:

    "A Roman citizen of no obscure station, having ordered one of his slaves to be put to death, delivered him to his fellow-slaves to be led away, and in order that his punishment might be witnessed by all, directed them to drag him through the Forum and every other conspicuous part of the city as they whipped him, and that he should go ahead of the procession which the Romans were at the time conducting in honour of the god. The men ordered to lead the slave to his punishment, having stretched out both his hands and fastened them to a piece of wood (tas kheiras apoteinantes amphoteras kai xuló prosdésantes) which extended across his chest and shoulders as far as his wrists, followed him, tearing his naked body with whips" (Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Antiquitates Romanae, 7.69.1-2; written in the first century BC).

    "At an early hour of the day appointed for the games, before the show had begun, a certain householder had driven his slave, bearing a furca through the midst of the Circus, scourging the culprit as he went" (Livy, Historia Romana, 2.36.1; written in the first century BC)

    "A certain man had handed over one of his slaves, with orders to scourge him through the Forum, and then put him to death. While they were executing this commission and tormenting the poor wretch, whose pain and suffering made him writhe and twist himself horribly, the sacred procession in honor of Jupiter chanced to come up behind....And it was a severe punishment for a slave who had committed a fault, if he was obliged to take a piece of wood with which they prop up the pole of a wagon, and carry it around through the neighborhood. For he who had been seen undergoing this punishment no longer had any credit in his own or neighboring households" (Plutarch, Coriolanus 24.4-5; written in the first century AD)

    So basically the composite cross came into existence when these two forms of punishment were combined during the Punic Wars— a man would carry the patibulum with his arms tied to it through the city or Forum and then be hoisted up on a pole (often with his hands nailed to the patibulum and feet nailed to the pole).

    It is not at all unusual that the crux would have a cross-like shape; it is such a basic geometric shape found throughout human artifacts. One only has to look through the world around us and see intersecting lines everywhere, just as triangles, circles, and squares can be seen everywhere (without intending any symbolic meaning by them). The early Christians pointed to examples like ploughshares, ship masts, trophies of war, the support for standards, etc., and yet none of these objects are made with the intention of having some symbolic meaning. It was rather the Christians who read symbolic meaning into the execution instrument; they were motivated to do so because it was hated by the pagan world around them whereas they saw it as the vehicle of their salvation, prophesied in scripture. The ubiquity of the shape in the world around them made them think that the crux was specially foreshadowed in nature and in invention. The expansion up and down and to the left and right was condusive to symbolism of the universality of the gospel and how it would spread throughout the whole earth, or that Christ's power is universal from the heights to the depths and embracing everything in between. All of this is drawing meaning from the geometry itself, not from any specific pagan religious uses of the symbol. If the latter were an influence later on, that would be a natural consequence of Christians looking for the cross everywhere in nature (with its use by man as a "preparation for the gospel"). But the cross was always the execution device that the pagans found disgusting (and on which many Christians were martyred); such use of symbolism had the obvious apologetic effect of going beyond the brutal reality to something more meaningful.

    One thing I find interesting are the assumptions made by WT writers (and reniaa here). The use of intersecting lines as a symbol is not very well distinguished from the execution apparatus, as if the question of what Jesus' cross looked like has anything to do with the use of the cross-shape in (religious) symbology, as if pointing out that the geometric shape has symbolic uses in other religions somehow shows that Jesus could not have died on a cross. Jesus was not executed on a symbol; he was put to death on an instrument that typically had a geometry superficially similar to other geometries of intersecting lines. Because this is such a basic geometry (draw lines between the four corners of a square, what do you get?), it independently has symbolic uses in cultures all over the world; the swastika is a variant of it. The worldwide use of this geometry as a symbol doesn't point to some mythical "Babylonianish origin"; the ubiquity is plainly the result of the very basic nature of the shape.

  • undercover
    undercover

    Here is the Watchtower Society's comments from their 'authoritative Web site' (their words) on whether Jesus died on a cross or not:

    Long before the Christian era, crosses were used by the ancient Babylonians as symbols in their worship of the fertility god Tammuz. The use of the cross spread into Egypt, India, Syria, and China. Then, centuries later, the Israelites adulterated their worship of Jehovah with acts of veneration to the false god Tammuz. The Bible refers to this form of worship as a ‘detestable thing.’—Ezekiel 8:13, 14.

    The Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John use the Greek word stau·ros′ when referring to the instrument of execution on which Jesus died. (Matthew 27:40; Mark 15:30; Luke 23:26) The word stau·ros′ refers to an upright pole, stake, or post. The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons, explains: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross.”

    [box]Some ancient drawings depict the use of a single wooden pole in Roman executions[box]

    As recorded at Acts 5:30, the apostle Peter used the word xy′lon, meaning “tree,” as a synonym for stau·ros′, denoting, not a two-beamed cross, but an ordinary piece of upright timber or tree. It was not until about 300 years after Jesus’ death that some professed Christians promoted the idea that Jesus was put to death on a two-beamed cross. However, this view was based on tradition and a misuse of the Greek word stau·ros′. It is noteworthy that some ancient drawings depicting Roman executions feature a single wooden pole or tree.

    Compare that to all the references provided by several posters here...

    It stands out that the Society has just glossed over the debate. They give their belief and expect the reader to accept it as gospel. It's more than obvious that one can't read anything the WT puts out and expect it to be definitive or accurate.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    Summary of this thread:

    Leo et al: facts evidence proof logic

    Reniaa: *poof*

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    for those that have read it, what is the general consensus on John Denham Parsons book?

  • babel on
    babel on

    This begs an answer, if jesus carried the pole up the mountain was their a hole their alredy to set in in or did he have to dig it..........if you have ever spent time digging holes in rocky soil it would make most sense that a stationary pole was there already otherwise someone would have to carry the heavy pole back down the hill for the next crux...........THINK reinna THINK

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    undercover....I would particularly note this comment about Tammuz:

    Long before the Christian era, crosses were used by the ancient Babylonians as symbols in their worship of the fertility god Tammuz. The use of the cross spread into Egypt, India, Syria, and China. Then, centuries later, the Israelites adulterated their worship of Jehovah with acts of veneration to the false god Tammuz. The Bible refers to this form of worship as a ‘detestable thing.’—Ezekiel 8:13, 14.

    What is this based on? This is just like the stupid claims on the internet that Horus was believed to have been crucified; it is based on unsourced statements made by 19th-century polemicists that cannot be traced to any ancient source. Here the Society is dependent on Alexander Hislop's pseudomythology, and it looks like all such claims have Hislop as their fons et origo. For example, the book History of the Cross (part of the late 19th-century polemicist literature) by Henry Dana Ward has a lengthy quote that in part says: "The mystic Tau, the initial of the name Taumuz (or Tammuz) was originally written τ. This was marked on the foreheads of the worshippers when they were admitted to the mysteries" (1871, p. 19). Is this a quote from a work on ancient Babylonian religion? No, it is a quote from the Illustrated History of the British Empire in India and the East, Vol. 1, written by Edward Henry Nolan (1858, p. 50). So I look up this book to see what it is basing this information on, but no source is cited. So I hunt around and find that on p. 36, Nolan writes (again without citing sources) that "the worship of a woman as a great queen pervades all early polytheistic nations. This is traced to Semiramis, the Queen of Nimrod". Aha, the association of Semiramis with Nimrod is an idea that Hislop is responsible for. And then on p. 53, we find a formal quotation from the book The Moral Identity of Rome and Babylon. That book was written in 1855 by Alexander Hislop. So the claims in the book The History of the Cross go right back to Hislop. I have never seen any modern author refer to the Tau as the "emblem of Tammuz", and with all the scholarship on the cult of Dumuzi and Inanna in ancient Mesopotamia, I have not seen any mention of such an "emblem" in early or later Mesopotamia. The references are all in 19th-century polemicist writings, not scholarship as far as I can see.

    Hislop himself, interestingly enough, does not source his statements about Tammuz and the cross in The Two Babylons (pp. 197-199). He gives sources for the images he uses but not the linkages of these images with "Tammuz". He quotes from Tertullian (De Praescriptione Haereticorum 40.3-4) to suggest that "the mystic Tau was marked in baptism on the foreheads of those initiated in the Mysteries", but if you actually read Tertullian (1) he was talking about Mithras not "Tammuz", (2) it was soldiers devoted to Mithras who would mark their foreheads (no description of the mark is given), and (3) the reference to baptism has nothing to do with the later Mithras reference. This is just typical of how Hislop freely mixes things together. The only other thing is an image on p. 199 of Dionysius/Bacchus wearing a mitra with cross-marks, regarding which Hislop said that the cross was the "unequivocal symbol of Bacchus, the Babylonian Messiah, for he was represented with a head-band covered with crosses". The phrase "Babylonian messiah" shows that Hislop is identifying Dionysius/Bacchus with Tammuz even though the image was not a depiction of Tammuz at all. But because of Hislop's statement the 1 July 1964 Watchtower (p. 395) reproduces this image and the caption claims that it is "Tammuz Wearing Crosses". Even if the two gods from different mythologies were somewhat functionally equivalent, that doesn't mean that one can cherry-pick any feature belonging to one god and claim without evidence that it also belonged to the other. I am also not sure what the provenance of this image is. As usual, there is a long chain of secondary references one has to go through. Hislop cites his own image on an earlier page (p. 48), and then that woodcut cites William Smith's Classical Dictionary of Biography, Mythology, and Geography (p. 208), which in turn cites James Millengen's Peintures Antiques et Inedites de Vases Grecs (plate 53), published in 1808. This is probably the first published source of the Greek vase bearing that image but unfortunately Millengen's book is extremely rare and so one cannot confirm the vase's date and provenance. I have seen many depictions of Bacchus/Dionysius and have never seen another example of a headband decorated with crosses. So it is not clear whether the headband in Millengen's vase simply reflects artistic ornamentation or whether it is, as Hislop puts it, the "unequivocal symbol of Bacchus". It is clear however that it has nothing to do with Tammuz.

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