Jesus not crucified on torture stake. Impossible!

by sacolton 250 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  reniaa

  I just want to say thankyou to leolaia who is the only one who understood the point I'm trying to make and answered as she usually does straight forwardly in true debate fashion :) we may never agree but I was glad to have a chance to put forward my viewpoint especially the scriptorial evidense on Jesus's words again thank you leolaia.

  Outlaw

  I am on a debate forum if all you can do is cast espersions on me in your posts then your credibility with me is shot. I have in 38 years in and out of Jw's never seen anyone wear wt Jewelry, I've certainly seen links on here to people selling it but never anyone actually foolish enough to wear it and if I were one of the wt scourers on this board I could probs find one discouraging it as well :S which I have a vague memory of from the past reading about it.

  hi ten years after

  To be honest the matter of the using cross in the bible a purely about a word accuracy one, a 'why didn't the inspired writers make it clear?' one and as I said to you it only matters too because of it being the major pagan idol in Christianity today, I could bring a lot of links to the table on the idolatry of the cross but that would be sidetracking the purpose of this thread but I am happy to discuss it specifically on another thread with scriptural links on what qualifies as an idol in the bible from God's viewpoint. The fact is that I think using it in and on our churches as we do is ample reason to get rid of it. Could you take it out of your churches, and use execution stake in your bibles I think you couldn't and the reason why is one that for me shows it as an idol. You say why do witnesses view it as important issue the fact is they don't but people on here not me felt the need to make this thread among many others trying to discredit witnesses getting rid of the cross in their lifes and bibles because they do think it is an idol and incidently not near enough to the original wording used of stauros to allow for the assumption of a crossbeam by using it.

  Back to weight argument! I rarely address this point as it is purely speculative, foolish to the extreme and all about trying to say secularily that Jesus used a crossbeam cross. In scotland they do something called caber throwing which involves men throwing large beams of wood around. I think Jesus could have been made to carry a stake easily but certainly not a whole latin cross if that was even used in Jesus's time. the patibulum argument rests on the fact that the bible writers would continue to say stauros for him only carrying part of his death instrument which they would have seen as eyewitnesses to the event and wrote on it later.

  If the word stauros can encompass using only part of the execution instrument again why use such a specific word like cross in our bibles? that means the 'whole' of it in language?

  why do we need a shape on it? why do we need a symbol?

  It is clear the first century Christians did not need the death instrument as a symbol and discussed Jesus's death as one purely from the meaning of his death for us and you yourself said. Witnesses keep to this viewpoint we only talk on how and why Jesus died for us the free gift of life Jesus's death means to us, using the instrument of Jesus death as some sort of relic in our KH or on our person is something we wouldn't even think of doing. I don't think someone believing Jesus died on (insert whatever death instrument you think he did die on here) would be a life or death issue but idolatry certainly is.

  I know quite a few born-agains that believe in the cross, but will not wear it for the reason of idol worship -dacheech

  Hi dacheech

  this feels like an oxymoron dacheech.... they do not use the CROSS but believe in the CROSS? huh! Jesus's death is not about what he died on but why he died for us and what it meant for him to die for us. Jw using torture stake actually brings the emphasis back to him dying but not on what he died!

  hi babel

  I was tempted to use the peter evidence to support Jesus predictions were pretty accurate when it concerns how people died so yes peter did die arms 'outstetched' but then Jesus describes his own death...

  John 3:14
  Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,

  Numbers 21:9
  So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

  If Jesus is accurate in predictions then there was no crossbeam involved and so more reason not to use a word that assumes it.

  hi mary you rewrite my words in quotes so I feel no need to answer your lies.

  cameo mockery is poor debate technique.
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  reniaa

  what does carrying your cross/torture stake mean? the answer to this is why you don't get witnesses going on Vacation and getting a fake stake and walking through jerusalem with it on their back unlike some christians do.

  The use of Torture/execution stake is almost like a verb in usage in the bible showing an action that Jesus predicted his followers would repeat dying for the message as many did, Cross brings it right back to Noun and puts the emphasis on the instrument used.
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  tenyearsafter

  Reniaa, the caber throwing analogy is a good one because it illustrates how difficult it is to wield the large poles for any distance. As to using the Moses, snake on a pole analogy, Jesus was raised on a pole...it is just a question of how he was fastened to it, whether on the upright alone or with a cross-member.

  I guess I am missing something when you say that by referring to a stake rather than a cross, JW's draw honor to the sacrifice rather than the symbol. How do you see that as different than saying he died on a cross? I was in a Christian church yesterday, and it was interesting that the pastor used the same analogy as the WT does about wearing a gun around your neck if a loved one was murdered by a gun. The difference was that he was pointing out that it isn't the honoring of the weapon, but rather the reminder of the sacrificial act and its meaning to believers.

  If the use of something by churches is a criteria for dismissing it as an idol or pagan, then I guess we better get rid of Bibles, pictures of Jesus, wine and unleavened bread, etc...
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  babel on

  18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

  I think this sums it up

  contrast this with the new world mistranslation

  18 For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is God’s power.

  22 For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness; notice the jews and now the jws are stumbled by it and how stupid it would sound to replace cross with Pole

  theres power in the pole
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  babel on

  the new world dosent have staros or whatever here to argue would like someone to research this 1 cor 1:18-26
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  reniaa

  hi tenyears we are just going to have to agree to disagree, the appostles and all the first century christians didn't feel the need to were a miniture death instrument around their necks or on their altars to 'remind' them your paster is just justifying it's usage by his words.

  If an appostle came back now and said "why have you got an idol on your altars' would you argue this point with him?

  the caber throwing actually shows that logs of wood are carriable for the intent of what is needed in the bible and Jesus needed help with his due to his weakened condition.

  the moses pole/stake/pale in no way involved a crosspiece so I think your reasoning on that is flawed and again back to my point that cross assumes a crosspiece beyond what the original writers wrote.
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  avishai

  Who cares? Ok, I'll bite, I DO care. But not about the geometry of torture. I care about the "Snuff porn" our kids are exposed too, every time they walk into a church, or open "My Book of bible stories". Or even driving down I-5 when some eejit farmer puts up a sign w/ a pic of a hand with a stick shoved thru it, blood spouting out, "He died for your sins"! You can't see naked tits in public, but you can sure see blood guts, murder, torture and trauma. And i'ts wrong.
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  BluesBrother

  I would thank reniaa for making a discussion out of this .

  My take is that of course the shape of the thing does not really matter, it is the scholarship and honesty of the WTS that bothers us. For decades I believed them that the cross was a pagan invention brought into Christianity at the time of Constantine..Now I find that there is at least a good argument for believing that he really was executed on a cross.

  If they wanted to eliminate the cross symbol from their religion then they only had to say that idolatry was wrong and crucifixes identified wearers with "Christendom", and in their view, it might not have had a cross piece anyway? .Why try to be dogmatic about it ?

  To me, it is dishonest of them and that is why I read all I can on this subject
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  Earnest

  Reniaa, while it does seem to me more likely that there was a crosspiece involved I accept your argument that "torture stake" is a more accurate translation of stauros as it describes the purpose of the implement rather than its specific shape. There is no doubt that using "cross" does suggest a particular shape in modern English. On the other hand, while the NWT does translate it accurately the appendices and all depictions of Jesus' death in the literature imply it was definitely an upright pole without crossbeam which seems to defeat the purpose of the accuracy in translation.But your persistence on clarifying this point is appreciated.
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  reniaa

  Hi earnest

  thankyou for the hands up.

  hi Bluebrothers

  to be honest I'm not sure on the pagan side of the debate, I haven't really researched it much. the change to cross happenned same time as the romans started to greatly influence christian doctrine so how much people using cross as actual image in their churches is connected to this i'm not sure any research offered would be appreciated. lol chicken and egg situation. Did cross word start first and romans christians took advantage and placed it in their churches or did Romans cross usage influence changing the wording? How much was a cross used in Roman pagan worship before the christians came along?

  Reniaa