Still, the evidence that a man crucified with his arms above his head CAN NOT live for more than 15 minutes.
Jesus not crucified on torture stake. Impossible!
by sacolton 250 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Mary
Reniaa droned: I agree leolaia is more learned than I am but I think she is more influenced by secular sources than I am, I take my cue from only the bible. Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
I had to read this twice to make sure I was really reading the correctly. But then I remembered who wrote it. Reniaa, are you really this dense? Let's put in in terms that your pea brain can actually grasp:
a) The cross was a common instrument of torture and death during Jesus' time and had existed even before then. The Romans didn't just want to execute someone---they wanted to make sure that person suffered for as long as possible. This is why they hung the condemned on a cross. With the arms simply outstretched, it took a hell of a lot longer for the person to die than if they had been hung on a single pole. And that is exactly how the Romans wanted it. To make the torment even worse, they would also quite frequently, have a little seat for whoever it was they were executing. It prolonged the agony even longer than normal-----sometimes it took a few days to die.
b) The Romans did not give a shit about putting Jesus to death on a 'pagan' symbol, because guess what? The Romans were pagans. I find it hilarious that Witnesses use this idiotic defense to try and prove that Jesus died on an upright pole without stopping to think of what I just mentioned above.
secular sources are all well and good but the writers could easily have given description to the shape of Jesus's death instrument that would have silenced all this debate but they didn't.
Ya......so how the hell can you sit there and claim that you 'know' it was an upright single stake? And what is this crap about 'secular sources?' Where the hell do you think historians get their information from if not from 'secular sources'? Are you really this stupid?
This is were the idolatry point comes in. given shape to Jesus's death instrument was influential in it becoming an idol on all the church altars.
Red herring, Reniaa. Your reasoning is flawed (what a huge surprise). Your claim that the cross has become an 'idol' has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that history tells us that cruxifictions (with two beams) under the Roman empire were commonplace 2,000 years ago. It's not rocket science, it's a fact of history.
Wts are tools like the letters for encouragement that the first century christians used some were inspired but the bible clearly shows those letters included many that weren't inspired to. If these letters were idols then so is the watchtower!
Soooo, you're now comparing the Watchtower to the bible itself? Ya, another huge surprise........Keep talking Reniaa.......I'm sure you can get those hours in one way or another.
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tenyearsafter
Earnest...
I agree that my calculations were conservative on the weight of the upright...and that gives more credence to what I suggest about the dragging of it through the streets. It is also very probable that a cross-beam would also be heavy and unwieldy...and certainly supports the description of Jesus requiring Simon of Cyrene's assistance.
I don't know what was ultimately carried by Jesus...or if he died on a stake or a cross. The point I have tried to make to Reniaa (and you agree with) is that it is irrelevant because it is what happened that mattered, not the details of how it happened. To get caught up in the legalism of the "how's" takes away from the ultimate purpose of the act.
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DaCheech
I know quite a few born-agains that believe in the cross, but will not wear it for the reason of idol worship
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tenyearsafter
Good point DaCheech...
Reniaa, what do you think of that? (but please answer my earlier questions first!!)
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Leolaia
tenyearsafter....The 1986 article "On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ" published in the Journal of the American Medical Association estimated the weight of the patibulum as 75-125 lbs. and the weight of the entire cross as over 300 lbs. (with the upright pole accounting for about 175-225 lbs of that weight). It also noted that the scourging that preceded the procession to Golgotha would have torn open Jesus' back muscles and the blood loss would have put him in a state of hypovolemic shock. This would have severely reduced the amount of weight he would have been able to carry, not to mention the fact that the wood would have gouged itself into the gaping wounds while carrying it.
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tenyearsafter
Thanks Leolaia...I was just trying to do some rough thumbnail math on the potential weight of the upright. Your clarification makes it quite clear that carrying it for any distance was a multiple person job.
I didn't even get into the details of the scourging that Jesus underwent, but all accounts (including those of the WT) indicate it was a horrific infliction of physical punishment...not the kind of stuff that would leave a man much strength to do anything beyond carrying heavy objects a short distance without help. The fact that Jesus was able to do what he did is a testament to his strength, but even he could no longer do it alone. It is unlikely that even a healthy, rested man could carry a 175+ lb. upright for any distance...even with the help of another man.
Reniaa...do you believe that Jesus could carry a 175+ lb. stauros through the streets in his condition...even with the help of Simon of Cyrene? Doesn't it make more sense that he carried something else to Golgotha where the upright was already in place?...
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babel on
reniaa do you have light poles where you live. we do and they have a cross bar up top to support the lines. we dont call em light crosses just poles.
if I may john 20 25 doubting thomas states that he must see his hands and the imprint of the nails plural suggesting that 2 nails were used on outstretched arms like on a cross or light pole if you will. further jesus when describing peters death jesus once again uses a cross in john 21:18
he says when you are old you will be girded with outstreched arms.......... overwhelming historic evidence that peter was crucified upside down
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babel on
and outlaw good comment on logos....Cross means jesus and what his death means to all who appreciate it. The tower is an embarrasment to all who where mislead by it.
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cameo-d
Reniaa...
Maybe you are just not ready for the beef yet.
