I need proof for my wife that NW Translation is not correct

by Albert Einstein 118 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi Reniaa,

    OK look forward to your posts. I am off for some sleep.

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    I think i'll goto bed too, getting late here I will address your points tomorrow but I have a feeling we are getting to an agree to disagree place, I will not accept that when the bible gives absolutes that there can be exceptions especially when Jesus is involved in the absolute like being the first to be resurrected and ascend to heaven.

    I have enjoyed our discussion and your patience and kindness in contrast with others on this forum despite our apposing viewpoints I am grateful for.

    till tomorrow Stephen

    Reniaa

  • besty
    besty

    The simplest explanation is usually the best one

    It's not often a rationalist (me) and a born-again (hobo ken) will say 'sigh....' on the same thread

    What happened to the original post?

    Asking for proof that the NWT is not correct is the wrong question, IMHO.

    How about: "Why are there different Bibles?"

    "The Bible comprises 24 books for Jews, 66 for Protestants, 73 for Catholics, and 78 for most Orthodox Christians"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible

  • oompa
    oompa

    albert....your best answer will be to write the society about why all 12 uses of the name jehovah in rev. are not quotes from the hebrew scriptures like appendix 1-d says they are...and since rev 22:18-20 says you can not add nor take away a word.....she will not like the answer, trust me........also see the insight book which shows that satans apostates removed the name jehovah from the greek scriptures when wt says the bible has been divinely protected by jehovah?????( under name Jehovah Use in Greek Scriptures).....how can it be both ways?.......

    and wtf else would satan and his homies change????????????

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    goodmorning besty and oompa,

    Besty the apocrytha are a whole subject in themselves something lealaia could help on but such a big subject best to make a separate thread if you truly want to know and why 66 of the books a currently agreed by all the christian faiths but some as you say take the liberty of adding various apocrypha books.

    Oompa

    I only know God uses his personal name in the hebrew scriptures and that a hebrew transcript of the book of mathew the language it was written in once existed maybe if a preserved version of it still existed we would get our answer why rev uses jah in 4 places but not so far in the copies we have of the other books. There is no bible explanation from hebrew to greek why we should not use God's personal name and in fact Jesus quotes hebrew scriptures he knew that used it. He also says this interestingly.

    John 17:26 (New American Standard Bible)

    26 and (A) I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that (B) the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

    hebrew scriptures use Gods name nearly 7000 times and no explanation in the greek why this changed, I know the jewish superstition on Gods name had started by Jesus's birth beyond that there is no biblical explanation on this subject accept Jesus words above if they refer to it. Until proof appears either way I prefer to side with the witnesses that for some reason it was removed from the greek scriptures.

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    How about because the name Jesus Christ was the one that now mattered, not YHWH?

    I mean, for starters, Jesus said Christians would be witnesses of him, not Buddah, Allah, Krishna or Jehovah. It's pretty simple to pick up; if you're a Christian you're a witness of Jesus - Acts 1:8.

    Then there's all this other stuff which seems to put the name Jesus above any other name;

    - Miraculous signs evidenced in the name of Jesus (Mark 16:17; Acts 4:30)

    - Hated for bearing the name of Jesus (Matt. 10:22; 24:9)

    - Hope in the name of Jesus (Matt. 12:21)

    - Whoever receives a little child in Jesus name receives Jesus (Matt. 18:5)

    - Encouraged to gather together in the name of Jesus (Matt. 18:20)

    - Great eternal reward for those who have made great sacrifices for the name of Jesus (Matt. 19:29)

    - Evil spirits cast out in the name of Jesus (Mark 9:38-39; Acts 16:18)

    - Demons subjected to the name of Jesus (Luke 10:17)

    - Address the Father in Jesus name (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24)

    - The Holy Spirit sent in the name of Jesus (John 14:26)

    - Witnesses to the name of Jesus (Acts 1:8)

    - Baptised in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48)

    - Healed in the name of Jesus (Acts 3:6-10)

    - Faith in the name of Jesus (Acts 3:16)

    - The name of Jesus is the only name that salvation is found in (Acts 4:10-12)

    - Threatened by hostile religious authorities not to speak in the name of Jesus (Acts 4:17-18; 5:28, 40)

    - The apostles rejoiced at being counted worthy of suffering for the name of Jesus (Acts 5:41)

    - The early Christians called upon the name of Jesus (Acts 9:14, 21; 1 Cor. 1:2) and even prayed directly to Jesus (Acts 7:59)

    - The name of Jesus bore before gentiles, kings, and the sons of Israel (Acts 9:15)

    - Christians suffered for the name of Jesus (Acts 9:16)

    - Speak boldly in the name of Jesus (Acts 9:27-28)

    - Forgiveness of sins in the name of Jesus (Acts 10:43)

    - Christians risk their lives for the name of Jesus (Acts 15:26)

    - The name of Jesus magnified and glorified (Acts 19:17; 2 Thess. 1:12)

    - Paul was willing to die for the name of Jesus (Acts 21:13)

    - Opponents show hostility to the name of Jesus (Acts 26:9)

    - Washed, sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus (1 Cor. 6:11)

    - The name of Jesus is the name above every name (Eph. 1:21; Phil. 2:9)

    - Give thanks for all things in the name of Jesus (Eph. 5:20)

    - Whatever we do, do it in the name of Jesus (Col. 3:17)

    - Jesus’ name more excellent than that of any angel (Heb. 1:4)

    - God’s command is to believe in the name of Jesus (1 John 3:23)

    - Persevere, endure, and hold fast to the name of Jesus (Rev. 2:3, 13)

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    good morning chalam I have a busy day so will be unable to reply much.

    Firstly I think it would be safe to say the immortality of soul and eternal torment in a fiery hell are linked. yet I can show numerous scriptures that a soul can die.

    Ezekiel 18:4
    For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

    jesus confirmed this viewpoint

    Matthew 26:38
    Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

    so at his time a soul was the whole person though to be able to die, Jesus's words do not show a teaching of immortal soul here.

    now lets get back to Hell second death. interestly how does your teaching deal with Jesus a Good man being put in Hell a place for the wicked by your viewpoint just by dying?

    Revelaton 20:14 KJV

    14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    If hell was eternal, why would it be thrown into the lake of fire here?

    this whole scripture makes a conflict in your teaching.

    would God think of a fiery Hell as a real literal option

    Jeremiah 7:31 (New International Version)

    31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

    as well as the ressurrection and 1000 years reign, your teaching would have God resurrecting people and sending them straight to eternal torment in hell, literally hello/goodbye scenario, yet a 1000 year reign and another time of testing makes more sense of God's ways to give them a chance at life despite their previous situations also were do all these nations live during the 1000 years reign? 1000 year reign is a biblical teaching that your doctrines just cannot explain.

    The problem with the eternal fiery torment in Hell second death is it creates to many conflicts with actual bible teachings.

    You use a lot of Jesus's parables to try and make a case of a literal hell but parables are not literal and not meant to be taken as such! Look at the lazarus story if we believe that is literal.... the righteuos while in heaven can hear all the tormented cries of the eternally damned burning away forever forgive me but that doesn't paint a pretty picture of people running around happy listening to screams and cries of others not just daily but actually forever.

    Hell is usually pictured a underground place with demons and pitchforks eternally tormenting humankind and a grinning horned Devil on some kind of throne but the bible clearly shows they will be fellow prisoners as well as death and hell itself. Who torments them then? will it be angels with pitchforks? lol you see the problem of taking symbolic hell as literal?

    Matt 10:28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na.

    Regarding this text, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (edited by C. Brown, 1978, Vol. 3, p. 304) states:“Matt. 10:28 teaches not the potential immortality of the soul but the irreversibility of divine judgment on the unrepentant.” Also, Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 95) gives the meaning “eternal death” with reference to the Greek phrase in Matthew 10:28 translated “destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” Thus, being consigned to Gehenna refers to utter destruction from which no resurrection is possible

    utter destruction here clearly stated is the point in the scripture and this fits neatly with death and hell itself being destroyed completely there will be no need for them eventually.

    just out of interest why would Jesus resurrect to physical life a girl and lazarus when they were clearly righteous/loved and by your understanding in heaven surely they are better off were they were?

    Regards reniaa

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    Reniaa says;

    You use a lot of Jesus's parables to try and make a case of a literal hell but parables are not literal and not meant to be taken as such!

    Matthew 24:45-47 is a parable. Surely you see the irony.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Password nice scriptures on the importance of Jesus's name he is Gods representative and our saviour, Priest, given all authority by God so yes his name is important but you do not show one scripture that says God's name is not to be used or no longer relevent. My scripture that clearly shows Jesus saying he made his father name known would contradict your viewpoint. So were it the scriptorial teaching to back your assumption?

    That Jesus has an important name does not make Jehovah's name obsolete the fact that Jesus quotes scriptures that use God's name diectly would also be against your assumption.

    Mark 12:28-30 (New International Version)

    28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

    29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. [ a ] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' [ b ]

    this is were christendoms doctrines are weak they assume things but don't have actual biblical teachings on them they make constructions from negatives.

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    Reniaa;

    My scripture that clearly shows Jesus saying he made his father name known would contradict your viewpoint. So were it the scriptorial teaching to back your assumption?

    Here we go again. You cite one scripture where Jesus said he made his Father's name known.

    1. name can have two meanings, as you know. You have a name here on JWN and you also have a name here on JWN
    2. no scriptural record of Jesus ever uttering YHWH, as you well know

    I also cited dozens of scriptures that show that it's the name Jesus that we should be witnesses of, preach in, pray in, heal in, cast out demons in, will be sanctified in and find salvation in.

    Please provide me with corresponding scriptures as presented to the 1st C Christian brotherhood that puts the same importance on the name YHWH.

    Cheers, now.

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