Sigh.....
I need proof for my wife that NW Translation is not correct
by Albert Einstein 118 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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OUTLAW
Reniaa..I`m waiting for a reply on the Oral Sex Public Talk Thread..Do you think you could tear yourself away and answer my Questions?..And..Hit the "play button" just below the bunny in one of my posts to you on that thread....................LOL!!...OUTLAW
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reniaa
I better address enoch issue which is difficult because if we are to believe he ascended alive to heaven then Jesus was a liar here.
John 3:13 (New International Version)
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. [ a ]
but if we look closely at the hebrew scriptures we can see that enoch did die.
Hebrews 11:4-14 (New International Version)
4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11 By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he [ a ] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
he may not have experienced death but hebrews confirms he did die.
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Hobo Ken
Reniaa says
"he may not have experienced death but hebrews confirms he did die"
Hahahahahaha.......Do you actually READ what you are typing or is it Johannes Greber style free association writing? The wts would defo approve.
How can you die without EXPERIENCING death?
Death is an event which the person dying experiences. not just the opposite of being alive.
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Chalam
Hi Reniaa,
the following is nice rhetoric chalam but it describing a concept to get around the facts of death.
No, it is pure biblical truth, see below. I consider the bible to give us the facts of death.
Hebrews 9:27 (New International Version)
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Genesis 3:19 (New International Version)
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.Daniel 12:2 (New International Version)
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Revelation 20:11-15 (New International Version)
The Dead Are Judged
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.Isaiah 66:22-24 (New International Version)
22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
If any of this rhetoric was true then scriptures saying the dead a conscous of nothing etc like this one in psalms would have no right to be in the bible.
Do you have anything else beyond Ecc 9:5 in isolation (without reading verse 6)?
Your rhetoric obviously tries to get around the death issue by making it some kind of 'living death' (ackkk a person can get a headache from dealing with the oxymorons in christendoms teachings) but the 'no awareness' scriptures clearly show this isn't the case.
What do you have? There is only one verse and that is Ecc 9:5 in isolation i.e. not talking into account verse 6 and the writers use of the phrase "under the sun" throughout the book as I showed. I have showed you many verses which are impossible to explain with the conclusion the WT draws from Ecc 9:5. Do we need to answer our queries with one verse which a who doctrinal issue hangs or multiple others?
So anyhow, let me know what verses you have to support "conscious of nothing". I just see one and that is out of context (no verse 6). Are you willing to base your everlasting life (or death) on the flimsy understanding of that one verse against many others?
I think you then use the soul sleep doctrine to try and get around Jesus saying they are asleep in death?
I don't think I follow, "soul sleep" is a WT doctrine, read the wikipedia page Soul sleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Interesting enough that the other present day defenders of the doctrine include other false prophets. You hold the same belief as the Mormons in this respect :(
Jesus is alive and conscious right? I have asked you about the other "cloud of witnesses". You still need to let me know about the others I questioned you in my last post please.
OK Psalm 146:4, good find!
Yes, it is true. But what perishes? The brain? The body? The soul? We are opening another (WT) doctrinal can of worms here but in short, what are we and what might be perishing in Ps 146:4? Enough clues.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (New International Version)
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Matthew 17:11 Jesus prophecies of Revelation 11 and talks of Elijah's life in the OT and how Elijah was received as a prophet in verse 12. It is clear in v13 that He sees John The Baptist as a similar prophet. Enoch and Elijah are two special cases in the fact that they never died. I don't know that quoting these verses prove much for either of us?
So, over to you. Plenty of questions need answering here and the ones before specifically about some of the "cloud of witnesses" please.
I have been diligent to answer all the points and questions you have raised so to return the favor would be great :)
All the best,
Stephen
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reniaa
hi hobo are you saying hebrews is lying when it says
13All these people were still living by faith when they died.
enoch is clearly in this list of those that died so your issue is with the bible here not me.
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Chalam
Hi again,
OK let's see
second death only appears 4 times in the bible and it says nothing you put in your rhetoric.
Revelation 20:14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
how can death be put into death? unless second death is a complete ending of things including that we die at all?
The "second death" only appears by name four times but it appears clearly in many other places. I have posted a few already but here goes.
Luke 12:5 (New International Version)
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
Clearly, after the body dies, Jesus has the power to throw us into somewhere. Same here...
Matthew 13:40-43 (New International Version)
40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matthew 13:47-50 (New International Version)
The Parable of the Net
47 "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Luke 13:22-30 (New International Version)
The Narrow Door
22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"He said to them, 24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'26 "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
Get in the right door! You are knocking at the wrong one and there is no answer...
Isaiah 66:24 (English Standard Version)
24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Luke 16:19-31 (New International Version)
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, [ a ] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Listen to Moses and the prophets as the scripture warns so you will not go to that place of torment.
Anyhow, enough already!
All the best,
Stephen
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reniaa
hi chalam I noticed you avoided my john scripture
John 3:13 (New International Version)
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
No one is in heaven clearly by Jesus's words until he himself dies and gets resurrected then ascends to heaven he is literally the first to do so.
And yes unlike God Jesus had to die to fulfil prophecy and pay the price sin required.
Isaiah 53:12 (New International Version)
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [ a ]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [ b ]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.the bible also clearly shows people are still in their graves waiting to be resurrected.
John 5:28-29 (New International Version)
28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
and again here it emphasies he is the firstborn from the dead
Colossians 1:18 (New International Version)
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
You are trying to make a case that some before christ are not dead but again the following scripture shows this isn't the case.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (New International Version)
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Jesus has to be first.
I showed the hebrews scripture that clearly says enoch is smong those that died if you want to contradict scripture your free to do so but thats your own issue.
and here is the principle that ALL men died none remained alive.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—lol there are two scriptures that say death is loss of thought and you just dismiss them?
Psalm 90:5
You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-there is absolutely no hint of conscousness after death the promise of life isn't until the resurrection.
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Chalam
Hi Reniaa,
I better address enoch issue which is difficult because if we are to believe he ascended alive to heaven then Jesus was a liar here.
John 3:13 (New International Version)
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. [ a ]
OK you say no-one is in Heaven who was on the earth, save Jesus? Can I ask you where the "cloud of witnesses" are then for example? Or the thief etc? We have already examined the greek and found that "paradise" is "third heaven" which is also Heaven in English terms. Do you believe in purgatory or some other place like the Catholics? I have another explanation which uses the verse in context but I think it is time that you presented you reasoning first and we can examine that, fair enough?
but if we look closely at the hebrew scriptures we can see that enoch did die.
I am afraid that is totally false. You can use verse 13 as you do but that would say verse 5 is a lie in the case of Enoch. The answer is he who was one of two special cases as I mentioned before.
Hebrews 11:5 (New International Version)
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
You still need to answer my questions about Enoch and the other in the "cloud of witnesses". Did God take Enoch's consciousness away when he took him from the earth? What about the others?
he may not have experienced death but hebrews confirms he did die
Which is it?! Hebrews does not confirm that, only that Paul never bothered to write ("save Enoch who I just told you never died").
The OT agrees
Genesis 5:24 (New International Version)
24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
Have a look at the Hebrew word for took him
Yes, God accepted/brought/drew/fetched Enoch into Heaven, nothing in the Hebrew about his death.
Same deal here with Elijah 2 Kings 2
Where does the scripture say Elijah was taken? Up into heaven!
What happened to his consciousness? Does he still have it? Are there only two in the cloud of witnesses who are conscious? Could get a bit tiresome just talking to each other?! What about Abraham, Abel and such? What is a witness?
- 1 wit·ness
- Pronunciation:
- \ ' wit-n?s\
- Function:
- noun
- Etymology:
- Middle English witnesse, from Old English witnes knowledge, testimony, witness, from 2 wit
- Date:
- before 12th century
All the best,
Stephen
- 1 wit·ness
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Chalam
hi chalam I noticed you avoided my john scripture
John 3:13 (New International Version)
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
My apologies, see my other post.
No one is in heaven clearly by Jesus's words until he himself dies and gets resurrected then ascends to heaven he is literally the first to do so.
Please see my post on the matter.
the bible also clearly shows people are still in their graves waiting to be resurrected.
John 5:28-29 (New International Version)
28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
I agree, their bodies are in the grave. When are their souls/spirits?
and again here it emphasies he is the firstborn from the dead
Colossians 1:18 (New International Version)
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
You are trying to make a case that some before christ are not dead but again the following scripture shows this isn't the case.
Yes I am, fair point. That does not make it false doctrine thought! After all, Christ died once for all. Abraham was justified by faith Romans 4 so he was good to go. Time has no meaning in eternity. That is why tenses appear wrong in the bible at various places for example. This is all past tense hundreds of years before Jesus' birth Isaiah 53
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (New International Version)
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Jesus has to be first.
I agree, His sacrifice paves the way. However, for example, according to Isaiah 53 Jesus had already died.
I showed the hebrews scripture that clearly says enoch is smong those that died if you want to contradict scripture your free to do so but thats your own issue.
Are you still handing onto that verse at the end of Hebrews 11 as if it cancels what Paul had just said regarding Enoch in verse 5?
and here is the principle that ALL men died none remained alive.
Romans 5:12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—
I agree, a common destiny for us all.
lol there are two scriptures that say death is loss of thought and you just dismiss them?
Psalm 90:5You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-
How does this verse saw that those dead are conscious of nothing? To my mind it says the opposite, i.e. their mind is active in another "place".
Same thing here
Luke 8:52-53 (New International Version)
52 Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. "Stop wailing," Jesus said. "She is not dead but asleep."
53 They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead.
there is absolutely no hint of conscousness after death the promise of life isn't until the resurrection.
Maybe we could have asked the girl if were were around? Or some of the other biblical characters to came back to life?
As it is, I have read and heard enough accounts of people who were medically dead and and returned to life and the common thread in pretty much all of them is:-
1. They felt their spirit leave the body, "as a hand fits a glove" many describe.
2. The were full conscious. In many cases they saw their body in the position where they died.
3. Many had similar experiences from here on which are widespread, tunnels, light or darkness etc.
I would not base my belief on them solely, the bible and the Holy Spirit are my guides. However, the bible says
Revelation 12:11 (New International Version)
11 They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimonyOne's testimony is powerful as I am sure was the testimony of the girl Jesus brought back to life, Lazarus, the man Paul raised from the dead and on.
All the best,
Stephen
