I need proof for my wife that NW Translation is not correct

by Albert Einstein 118 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Leolaia

  Sorry you are right leolaia I forgot that Jews did take on beliefs of afterlife from pagans around them

  Of course...Israelite religion such as found in the older parts of the OT was strongly influenced by Canaanite and other ANE concepts. Jewish and early Christian religion as found in the later parts of the OT and in the NT was influenced by Babylonian, Persian, and Greek concepts. NT apocalyptic notions of the resurrection, Judgment Day, dualistic division of the wicked and just, and eschatological punishment in fire were all borrowed from Persian Zoroastrianism; these were not beliefs of older Yahwism in the OT. Platonic and Stoic thinking permeates much of the NT (see my posts on the other thread about Paul's terminology about talking about life after death and the use of psukhé "soul" in Revelation to refer to the part of a person that survives death), at least at a superficial level. Even Ecclesiastes could be posited as influenced by Greek philosophy, namely, Epicureanism.

  As for what the Hebrew word nephesh referred to, please see the posts of mine that I linked. The Hebrew concept of the living person (= nephesh) dying doesn't imply that the person doesn't have a non-living (i.e. dead) existence as frequently described in the OT. This is not the same thing as non-existence or annihilationism as the Society teaches.
• 

  passwordprotected

  Hence the concept of "life after the afterlife".
• 

  reniaa

  Ouch you take everything down to the human equation leolaia you remind me of the people who grew up with Jesus and just couldn't see he was the messiah through his humanity to them he would always be a snotty-nosed carpenters lad.

  Jesus himself knew how far from the teachings the jews has gone and he did not support these differing viewpoints in fact Jews lost their place as God's people because of it. Do we think christianity would not be prone to the same mistakes?

  Titus 1:14 (New International Version)

  14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.
• 

  reniaa

  hi chalam I thought you were going down the immortality of the soul route so posted a paste that addressed it better than myself could but if it wasn't that what in particular were you wanting an opinion on?
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Reniaa,

  Here are the questions

  1. Is it really better to die as Paul says and be "conscious of nothing" as the WT teaches? How is he going to be conscious that he is with Christ?

  2. In the "cloud of witnesses" listed in Hebrews 10 is Enoch who along with Elijah, never died. They are obviously not "conscious of nothing". Now Elijah appeared with Moses and they were both obviously fully conscious Matthew 17 Mark 9

  So my question is who is now conscious?

  a) Enoch

  b) Elijah

  c) Moses

  d) Abel

  e) Abraham

  f) Jesus

  g) none of the above

  h) all of the above

  i) some other combination?

  Let me know what you think please.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  passwordprotected

  Do we think christianity would not be prone to the same mistakes?

  Now that I've got my suit pressed and my pilot's case stuff with literature, can you assure me that Jehovah's Witnesses won't make the same mistakes?
• 

  Leolaia

  No, if you read the synoptic gospels, Jesus did not question Pharisee concepts of what happens after death. He questioned "their" (i.e. as represented by the gospel writers) oral halakha and condemned the hypocrisy of the rabbis of not practicing what they preach. There is nothing in the gospels about Jesus rejecting the Pharisees' eschatological beliefs. Rather, he disputed the Sadducee notion very similar to Ecclesiastes that the dead have no postmortem life or judgment. His arguments presume the exact same things (resurrection, Judgment Day, dualistic division of wicked and just, eternal punishment) that the Pharisees and Essenes believed at the time, and which were all influenced by "pagan" doctrines. I doubt you'd want to say that the belief in the resurrection is part of how far the teachings of the Jews strayed from the older OT beliefs. But in this respect, the Sadducees were much more conversative than the Pharisees, Essenes, and early Christians.

  The Society is quick to ascribe any biblical doctrine not in their belief system to "pagan influence" without any acknowledgement that many of the concepts they do accept are similarly "pagan". The Bible writers were not an island to themselves within Jewish culture, and the Jews were not an island within the ANE. It was natural for there to have been influence and an interchange of ideas, and the signs of this are all over the place in the Bible. To claim that only non-JW doctrines show evidence of "pagan influence" is nothing less than cherry-picking and special pleading.
• 

  reniaa

  hi chalam hmmm your using the transfiguration as proof when that is looking into the future,

  Matt 16:28 Most certainly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom."

  Matt 17:1 After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain by themselves. 2 He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light

  Luke 9:27 But I tell you the truth: There are some of those who stand here, who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Kingdom of God."

  Luke 9:28 It happened about eight days after these sayings, that he took with him Peter, John, and James, and went up onto the mountain to pray.Luke 9:29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became white and dazzling.

  Rev 1:13 And among the lampstands was one like a son of man, * clothed with a robe reaching down to his feet, and with a golden sash around his chest.

  Rev 1:14 His head and his hair were white as white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire.
• 

  Chalam

  hi chalam hmmm your using the transfiguration as proof when that is looking into the future

  Yes, it was part of my reasoning. Do you think there is a clock in eternal life? Paradise is eternal life right? Why does God talking about a beginning and an end?

  OK back to my questions please.

  1. Is it really better to die as Paul says and be "conscious of nothing" as the WT teaches? How is he going to be conscious that he is with Christ?

  2. In the "cloud of witnesses" listed in Hebrews 10 is Enoch who along with Elijah, never died. They are obviously not "conscious of nothing". Now Elijah appeared with Moses and they were both obviously fully conscious Matthew 17 Mark 9

  So my question is who is now conscious?

  a) Enoch

  b) Elijah

  c) Moses

  d) Abel

  e) Abraham

  f) Jesus

  g) none of the above

  h) all of the above

  i) some other combination?

  Look forward to you answers.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  reniaa

  I see your point leolaia I just can't see immortality of the soul as a bible teaching for one it is just too conflicting with the teachings of eternal life being a reward.

  how can people gain eternal life as a reward if they are already eternally alive? even if it is in hell or heaven they are supposedly immortal and not dead so you have to throw out all the scriptures saying life is a reward.