I need proof for my wife that NW Translation is not correct

by Albert Einstein 118 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Just a few comments...."third heaven" is no mystery....it belongs to the schema of four or seven heavens that Jews and Christians at the time believed existed. Paul's readers would have certainly understood what the phrase referred to. There are many, many statements by Jews and Christians of the first and second century AD concerning the "Paradise of delight" (= Garden of Eden) being located in heaven and similar statements are found in the rabbinical writings. There are two main understandings: (1) That the original earthly garden was not destroyed in the Flood but was preserved in heaven, or (2) The earthly garden was merely a copy or shadowing of the more glorious paradise in heaven (in a rather similar way that the Temple on Mount Zion was a representation of the heavenly Temple).

    Second, the NWT rendering of Ecclesiastes 9:5 of the dead being "conscious of nothing at all" is something of an overtranslation; unconsciousness is not quite the same thing as not knowing anything. Also the verse is usually used selectively as a prooftext; the same passage also states that "they have no further reward" and "never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun". This represents quite well the views of the Sadducees about death; the book is probably a proto-Sadducee work (one of the only works to survive from this branch of early Judaism). Such statements contrast with Pharisee and Essene affirmations of life after death, particularly, the belief in a future resurrection (as in 1 Enoch, Daniel, 2 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, etc.).

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    Sorry, but why are we letting Reniaa completely duck out of her assertion that paradise is on earth according to Revelation 2, when the WTBTS says this scriptures doesn't apply to earth, it applies to heaven?

    Just because the Revelation Climax book says that it's doctrines are "subject to change" doesn't change the FACT that Reniaa is promoting a teaching CONTRARY to what the WTBTS teaches, namely that the paradise in Rev 2 is on earth.

    Guess what, she's become one of us now.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    symbolic language chalam are we to take it the are literal spirits of people suffering in an eternal prison? when clearly the bible shows people who are dead are conscous of nothing. I think you are going down the immortality of the soul route but this was never a jewish teaching they always taught we were humans whoare souls living souls that can die.

    Ezekiel 18:20
    The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

    Proverbs 23:14
    Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

    Ps 146: 4 -His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

    but we do know that God sees dead people as living to him.

    Luke 20:37-38 (New International Version)

    37 But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' [ a ] 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    Sorry, but why are we letting Reniaa completely duck out of her assertion that paradise is on earth according to Revelation 2, when the WTBTS says this scriptures doesn't apply to earth, it applies to heaven?

    Just because the Revelation Climax book says that it's doctrines are "subject to change" doesn't change the FACT that Reniaa is promoting a teaching CONTRARY to what the WTBTS teaches, namely that the paradise in Rev 2 is on earth.

    Guess what, she's become one of us now.

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    Reniaa said "As for paradise I find the teachings of Jws that cover both heaven and earth and don't promise all a heavenly resurrection as kings and rulers as more believable and realistic from a whole bible perspective."

    I've read that about 4 times and I still don't understand it.

    Is paradise in heaven or on earth, according to the Bible?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    symbolic language chalam are we to take it the are literal spirits of people suffering in an eternal prison? when clearly the bible shows people who are dead are conscous of nothing. I think you are going down the immortality of the soul route but this was never a jewish teaching they always taught we were humans whoare souls living souls that can die.

    This is flatly wrong. Of course there were Jewish teachings of conscious existence after death. See for instance the statements found here:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/173215/2/Question-for-our-scholars

    The Bible is an anthology of writings from different authors at different times and thus does not have a uniform eschatology. What you are doing is pitting one scripture against another and saying that the references to a concious existence after death are merely "symbolic" (saying something is "symbolic" is often a rhetorical technique used to harmonize statements unfavorable to your position to those you use as prooftexts). One could easily do the reverse and pit affirmations of post-mortem consciousness against your favorite prooftexts and say that the latter are the ones that are "symbolic" or "hyperbolic". Judaism was full of different understandings of the hereafter and the Bible reflects that. If one accepts the notion of "progressive revelation" (the light getting brighter and brighter), one would wonder why older less theologically developed texts in the OT are privileged over later references to life after death in the NT and elsewhere.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Sorry you are right leolaia I forgot that Jews did take on beliefs of afterlife from pagans around them much as catholics but immortality of the soul is not a bible teaching here is a good paste on it I found.

    Let us look at what GOD says. Now it would have been quite possible for the Scriptures never to have mentioned soul in connection with death. Many other terms and expressions could have been used. So that when we find that in nearly 300 places (one-third of the total uses of the word) souls are described as being mortal, subject to death,

    http://www.west.net/~antipas/books/soul/soul_3.html

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    Silly how you think there can be a separation between Jewish beliefs of the afterlife and "the Bible", which is nothing more than a conglomeration of Jewish writings. I suppose God preserved all the good parts...

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    passwordprotected-Is paradise in heaven or on earth, according to the Bible?

    Both, please read my post! But just to recap.

    Paradise is in Heaven now, that is where Jesus, the Father and the thief are, also the "great cloud of witnesses" (nothing to do with JWs). Yes they are alive like Jesus, the first born of many (born again) brother and sisters, having a great time.

    At Revelation 21, the end of all things, paradise comes down to earth out of Heaven. So does everyone else with it, the Son, the Father, and the rest of them.

    If you need the verses then look in my post.

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi reniaa,

    symbolic language chalam are we to take it the are literal spirits of people suffering in an eternal prison? when clearly the bible shows people who are dead are conscous of nothing. I think you are going down the immortality of the soul route but this was never a jewish teaching they always taught we were humans whoare souls living souls that can die.

    So you believe everlasting life is literal and everlasting torment not literal? You cannot pick and choose.

    Daniel 12:2 (English Standard Version)

    2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Matthew 25:46

    46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

    Revelation 20:10 (English Standard Version)

    10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Revelation 20:12-20 (English Standard Version)

    12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    It is not a game here. If you find out verse 10 is literal as and your name in not in the Book Of Life it will be a mistake of cataclysmic proportions.

    Jesus tell you about his Revelation just over the page.

    Revelation 22 (English Standard Version)

    6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."

    He says this

    12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

    14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    Make sure you are inside the city, not outside. Here is how, you need to come to Him. He gives the water of life John 4

    17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

    All the best,

    Stephen

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