by Albert Einstein 118 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Do witnesses have to be alive in this instance? here a stone is a witness and the ones you talk of as witnesses are all ones recorded in the bible for people to read and take note from. which paul scripture are you quoting from?
Josh 24:27 Joshua said to all the people, "Behold, this stone shall be a witness against us; for it has heard all the words of Yahweh which he spoke to us. It shall be therefore a witness against you, lest you deny your God."
I see your point leolaia I just can't see immortality of the soul as a bible teaching for one it is just too conflicting with the teachings of eternal life being a reward.
Eternal life is a gift (although there a rewards within it) and eternal death is not.
how can people gain eternal life as a reward if they are already eternally alive? even if it is in hell or heaven they are supposedly immortal and not dead so you have to throw out all the scriptures saying life is a reward.
Everyone will die physically i.e the first death. Those who are born again i.e. spiritually alive, come back to everlasting life in the new, incorruptible body and those who are spiritually dead come back to everlasting shame. The latter is called the second death.
Now, how are you getting on with the multiple choice?
All the best,
Stephen
Hi Reniaa,
I have tweaked the question so it is even more scriptural in the style of Ecclesiastes.
In the "cloud of witnesses" listed in Hebrews 10 is Enoch who along with Elijah, never died. They are obviously not "conscious of nothing".
Now Elijah appeared with Moses and they were both obviously fully conscious Matthew 17 Mark 9
So my question is who is currently conscious but not "under the sun"?
a) Enoch?
b) Elijah?
c) Moses?
d) Abel?
e) Abraham?
f) Jesus?
g) none of the above?
h) all of the above?
i) some other combination?
All the best,
Stephen
Hi Reniaa,
I have tweaked the question so it is even more scriptural in the style of Ecclesiastes.
In the "cloud of witnesses" listed in Hebrews 10 is Enoch who along with Elijah, never died. They are obviously not "conscious of nothing".
Now Elijah appeared with Moses and they were both obviously fully conscious Matthew 17 Mark 9
So my question is who is currently conscious but not "under the sun"?
a) Enoch?
b) Elijah?
c) Moses?
d) Abel?
e) Abraham?
f) Jesus?
g) none of the above?
h) all of the above?
i) some other combination?
All the best,
Stephen
Jesus is eternally alive unlike God he was born but now he lives and has the power from God to give life so yes I'd probs only answer Jesus but the others are awaiting resurrection and I think the others are witnesses from the written record of them from the bible Gods inspired word.
Hi,
So you answer f) Jesus?
So what about Enouch, he never died? Did God take away his consciousness when he took him from earth?
Same with Elijah? He never died? Did God take away his consciousness when he took him from earth?
How about Moses? Did God give him conciousness for a while during the transfiguration and then return him to be "conscious of nothing"?
Abel? How about him. The bible says he still speaks and he is with the rest of the "cloud of witnesses".
Abraham? Same deal as Moses. Did God give him conciousness for a while during the transfiguration and then return him to be "conscious of nothing"?
Also he speaks to the rich man in the second death in Luke 16 Is the rich man "conscious of nothing"?
Jesus. Yes he was physically dead, was made alive and is in paradise fully conscious, the first born amongst man brothers, the cloud of witnesses (not JWs).
Is the thief there?
Is Paul there?
Let me know what you think.
All the best,
Stephen
Chalam I'm loving your posts. You are being patient and persistent and I like your sound biblical reasoning.
Keep up the Lord's work.
Matt.
Hi Matt,
Thanks for the encouragement :)
All the best,
Stephen
the following is nice rhetoric chalam but it describing a concept to get around the facts of death.
Everyone will die physically i.e the first death. Those who are born again i.e. spiritually alive, come back to everlasting life in the new, incorruptible body and those who are spiritually dead come back to everlasting shame. The latter is called the second death. chalam
If any of this rhetoric was true then scriptures saying the dead a conscous of nothing etc like this one in psalms would have no right to be in the bible. Your rhetoric obviously tries to get around the death issue by making it some kind of 'living death' (ackkk a person can get a headache from dealing with the oxymorons in christendoms teachings) but the 'no awareness' scriptures clearly show this isn't the case. I think you then use the soul sleep doctrine to try and get around Jesus saying they are asleep in death?
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
You only offer a few scriptures that can be taken and used to the persons ends lol in the mathew scriptures you used I could twist them to make a good case for reincarnation.
11 Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
But whereas I can show definite scriptures showing the condition of the dead and that souls die you have to build logical constructs to explain the doctrines you follow.
second death only appears 4 times in the bible and it says nothing you put in your rhetoric.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
how can death be put into death? unless second death is a complete ending of things including that we die at all?
