Leolaia, slimboyfat et al. - how difficult?

by TheOldHippie 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Narkissos

  As regards salvation, Biblical complexity is made up of many (some would say too many) simple statements (along with a few intrinsically complex ones, let's not exaggerate)...

  For practically every Pauline (or post-Pauline) affirmation on this topic (e.g. Romans 10:9f) you can find a counter affirmation in Matthew (e.g. 7:21ff), or James...

  It then boils down to choosing (hairesis!): which you will "simply" believe and which you will more or less painfully explain away (unless you are brave enough to straightforwardly reject it, as Luther tended to do, with the epistle of James for instance). In both cases, your Bible ends up being less than the Bible. A canon in the canon. This imo is unavoidable if you are to really believe something.
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  Chalam

  Hi Narkissos,

  I do not want to be contentious but I fail to see the problem between the two scriptures you have posted? Here they are.

  Romans 10:9 (New International Version)

  9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

  Matthew 7:21 (New International Version)

  21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

  So what do you find in one that is contrary to the other? Here is the will of the Father explained.

  John 6:40 (New International Version)

  40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

  Once again, it is about belief in Jesus. Quite obviously, not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom.

  Consider Jehovah's Witnesses for example. Ask them and they will say "Jesus is Lord", no problem, it is in the NWT after all. However, do they believe that God raised Him from the dead as the scripture says? No, they do not. They say Jesus was raised as a "spirit creature". Now a spirit has no body (some would call it a ghost). Nowhere does the bible say Jesus was raised as a ghost or even a "spirit creature". Nowhere. They twist this verse to their own destruction

  1 Peter 3:18 (New International Version)

  18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit

  How was Jesus raised from the dead? By the power of the Holy Spirit. Who is He? The Spirit of God (verse 9 below) who is also the Spirit Of Christ (verse 9 also)

  Romans 8:9-11 (New International Version)

  9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

  Jesus Himself said He was not a ghost or just spirit. See below, the disciples touched His physical body as the scripture says.

  Luke 24:38-42 (New International Version)

  38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

  40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish

  Also, He was hungry. The same as the girl Jesus raised from the dead Luke 8:54-56

  Now JWs will lead you to this verse and say that no-one will be reurrected with a physical body and inherit the Kingdom.

  1 Corinthians 15:50 (New International Version)

  50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

  However, if you check, Jesus did not use the term "flesh and blood" as He had done so many times before His resurrection but in verse 39 above, "flesh and bones". No wonder as His blood had been poured out for the sins of mankind.

  Similarly, there are other groups who will says "Jesus Is Lord" but do not do the will of the Father and neither believe the scripture. The Church Of Jesus Christ of The Later-day Saints is another who come to mind.

  So I find the gospel simple, John 3:16 (New International Version)

  16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

  Now Jesus had quite a lot to say whist He was on the earth and later though His revelation to Paul and John etc. If you believe in Jesus, you will believe what the scripture says about Him and also want to live by His example-that is the will of the Father.

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  Narkissos

  Hi Stephen,

  Never mind.

  All the best.
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  besty

  LOL @ Narkissos - to recognise an unworthy oponent is truly a gift from god
• 

  besty

  also liked

  the haiku

  symmetry

  you made
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  Colton

  Good work, Chalam. I couldn't have said it better.

  John 4:10 is a great example why we should worship Jesus.

  Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who is saying to you, 'Please give me a drink,' you would have been the one to ask him, and he would have given you living water."

  By grace. All glory and praise returns to God.

  Amen!
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  slimboyfat

  We're not worthy.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FucbvoFFy0
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  TheOldHippie

  I think this perhaps is taking a wrong turn. If you go back to my original question, I was not trying to ask people in general "what is required for mysalvation?". I was more thinking of - do you not fear that you are looking that much into commas, punctuation, hidden meaning of Greek or Hebrew symbols or myths or borrowing from other religions or - whatever - that the Christian message is becoming too difficult to understand, too tough to handle? Because - on the other hand people here state that "all you need is turning to Jesus" (I am not trying to make fun of people), that it is simple, that you should only BELIEVE, that praying to and believeing in Christ is all that is necessary. Meetings, preaching, works, deeds - all is subordinate to believing in Jesus. But at the same time, you say that JWs will not be "saved". There are certain groups or certain kinds of people you are rather sure of that you will NOT meet in Heaven - or possible on a paradise Earth - and JWs are among them, as are perhaps Mormons, Greek Orthodix perhaps - and some are rather certain they will not meet Roman Catholics - some are certain they will not meet Methodists - some feel they will not meet Lutherans - and so it goes. So while you say that all one needs is believeing injesus, obviously you also think that the way JWs believe in Jesus is an incorrect way. So there are correct ways and incorrect ways. And then along come the long and winding postings where one deals with commas and myths and original Greek meaning of words etc. etc.

  And then along comes my friend, the Kalahari desert pygme, who cannot read or write and who tells me he was born four moons after the year when the wind was especially tough from the West and the river went high, and that he has a woman with whom he lives and as many children as he has fingers and some more - OK, along he comes and asks "what is needed for my salvation?" How much of the ancient Greek grammar would you require him to learn? Because you require of the JWs that they must learn it, as you constantly try to point out where and how they err in this respect.

  Did my question ecome a bit clearer now, or did the fog of Mount McShadow fall even more upon it?

  TOH
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  Narkissos

  Quite clearer imo, but then I have to agree with Chalam (just for once): you were asking the wrong people. Your question (a very good one I think) really addresses those who believe there is one exclusive way to "salvation" (whatever that means). And of course that includes Jehovah's Witnesses.
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  slimboyfat

  I understood your question. I pointed out that for me personally I don't believe in the Bible. So therefore the question of whether my approach to discussing the Bible is the right way to go about getting salvation is just not relevant. Unless you are saying people who don't believe the Bible is inspired of God should not talk about the Bible at all.

  Others can answer or not as they wish.

  Incidentally while some parts of the NT do stress the simplicity of the faith, and you emphasize those, clearly there are other parts that talk about 'sacred secrets', a Saviour who dwells in 'unapproachable light', and frankly use language that often obscures rather than elucidates.

  I do wonder what your innocent tribesman, left to his own devices, would make of some of Jesus' parables, or the book of Revelation for example.