The end the system of things

by purplesofa 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  purplesofa

  Wow, I was looking up other bible versions of Matt 28:20 and they all say something to the effect of end of the age.

  So, to me it could mean, end of an era, end of the way things are done now, etc etc, although I do see that one translation says the end of the world.

  How did the WT come up with end of system of things?

  And something too, did you find that when Witnesses talk about the end, it is referred to the end of THIS system of things, and not just end of system of things.

  Thanks Johnny for your comment and Blondie and Mouthy for your links.

  Thanks everyone for your comments.
• 

  flipper

  PURPS- The end ain't comin' sis . I was born and raised in it 44 years . Got out almost 6 years ago. I was told in 1975 I'd never get married or raise children in this " system of things ". Was told I'd raise my children in Paradise. If this is Paradise , I'd like to know what hell looks like. LOL! Well- I'll be 50 in October and my son a non-witness is 24, and my 2 witness daughters are 22 and 20.

  I truly feel that each of our real " end " comes when we are dead and in our graves. The actual system we live in will go on- in my opinion. Just gotta make the best of what we've got ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
• 

  purplesofa

  I am not worried about the end coming, I have been far enough away from it all that I don't live in that fear anymore.

  I just find it very interesting all the ends that the bible speaks about.

  I still think the Bible is a life script for many and people will be hell bent on playing out the parts to fulfill what they think their part is in the grand scheme of things.

  Actually, I am reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, my mind tends to go more in this direction.

  purps
• 

  Narkissos

  The phrase sunteleia [tou] aiônos ("end of the age") is specific to Matthew (13:39-40,49; 24:3; 28:20). In the NT it is only found elsewhere in Hebrews 9:26 in the plural form, sunteleia tôn aiônôn, "end of the ages".

  The use of aiôn in Matthew is quite parallel to the Jewish pharisaic-rabbinical use of Hebrew `olam, meaning "age" or "world," especially in the eschatological (end-time) distinction between this age/world (ha `olam ha-zeh) and the age/world to come (ha `olam ha-bah). Cf. similar uses of aiôn in Matthew 12:32; 13:22. In between the two ages, according to the general pharisaic-rabbinical scenario, come the Messiah, the time of distress (aka tribulation), the general resurrection and final judgement.

  In 28:20 (probably late conclusion to the book) the perspective is broader than in chapter 24 imo, since the conversion of Gentiles through worldwide evangelism is thought to occur before the "end of the age". This is definitely beyond the scope of 10:6,23 which foretells the coming of the Son of Man (roughly equivalent to "the end of the age") before the end of the mission to Israel. And even more than 24:14 that extends the preaching of the Gospel to the "inhabited earth" (= the Roman empire), which (at least as a first level of meaning) doesn't strictly imply preaching to the Gentiles but can be understood as "preaching to the Jewish diaspora as a testimony to the Gentiles. Here (in 28:18ff) the preaching is clearly to the Gentiles, from the new perspective that they (by becoming disciples) constitute God's "new nation" instead of Israel (cf. 21:43). So the "end" is practically postponed sine die.

  Of course one implication is that Jesus' "invisible presence" (as the WT puts it) doesn't coincide with the sunteleia tou aiônios (which the NWT translates as "conclusion of the system of things" as if it were a sizeable period of time). The sunteleia tou aiônios, like the parousia (cf. another recent thread) is the final, visible, sudden event which terminates Jesus' "invisible presence": "I am with you every day until (eôs) the end of the age".
• 

  Satanus

  'Q 10. What shows that Jesus Christ is with his anointed followers?
  
  10 Shortly before he ascended to heaven, the resurrected Jesus appeared to his faithful disciples and made a promise to them, say ing: "Look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." (Matt. 28:20) Has this promise proved reliable? In the last 15 years, the number of con gregations of ]ehovah's Witnesses worldwide has grown from some 70,000 to over 100,000--an increase of over 40 percent. And what about the new disciples added? Nearly 4.5 million disciples were baptized in the last 15 years-an average of more than 800 a day. These spectacular increases are clear evidence that Christ is directing his anointed followers at their congregation meetings and is supporting them in their disciple-making work'

  According to wt, there are a few thousand anointed. Yet, unofficially, they say that many of them are fake. I guess that what they really mean is the gb. The growth in jw numbers proves that jesus is w the gb. Yet, numbers is not one of the proofs listed in the gospels for having jesus. See luke16:

  15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation.
  16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.
  17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
  18 they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."
  19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
  20 And they went out and proclaimed the good news everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that accompanied it.
  .

  'If Matt 28:20 was fulfilled in 70CE why are they quoting it for this present time?'

  The wt isn't satisfied to be just christian, in fact, it isn't christian. You don't need end of the world type crap to be christian. The wt wants to go one better than the christians, so it uses sensationalism. Since their beginning they have been eenterpreting the bible in a way that puts them into it.

  S
• 

  hamsterbait

  I think to see why they decided on "system of things" you should read the book "Things in Which it is impossible for God to Lie".

  There is a section about the question the disciples asked just before the Olivet Discourse and the use of the words kosmos, aion, I forget the other word. But I do remember our study when we covered this.

  aion also means "order of things" in the footnote to Mt24: 3.

  The Society seems to have used words New ORDER or SYSTEM depending on the language used in the political arena to influence the sheeple at the time.

  Interestingly, although they have dropped the terms "New Order" and "New System" in favor of "New World" they still say "conclusion of the system (or old order)" rather than "End of the World" which would mesh better with this once again fashionable term.

  But then we all know that Babylon's Churches use the term "end of the World".

  HB
• 

  purplesofa

  So Christ is with them until 70CE and then returns supposedly 1914? Now, Staying with his people until the next end? When all gets handed back to God as sited in Revelation, after Satan is abyssed and then let out for the last and final test on mankind?

  I promise I am not trying to be difficult.
• 

  Narkissos

  About Paul's eschatology in 1 Corinthians 15, the only "time deadline" is provided by the clear implication that he (and his contemporary fellow-believers) expects to be alive at the time of Jesus' coming (parousia, v. 23) which brings about the "end" (telos, v. 24). Cf. v. 51f: We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (This is even clearer in 1 Thessalonians 4).

  (The NWT "system of things" for aiôn is a painful case of mistaking a "definition" -- and a rather reductionist one at that -- for a translation. Aiôn is primarily temporal, it means "age"; a derived sense is that which characterises an age, "how things are" during an age: hence a "state of things," in classical rendering a "dispensation". But second to "age" the usual rendering "world" is perfectly correct.)
• 

  Narkissos

  So Christ is with them until 70CE and then returns supposedly 1914? Now, Staying with his people until the next end? When all gets handed back to God as sited in Revelation, after Satan is abyssed and then let out for the last and final test on mankind?

  I promise I am not trying to be difficult.

  LOL, you sure? That's what happens when you try to squeeze all the NT into a consistent scenario. Maybe I should have made clearer that imo Matthew 28:20 has nothing to do with 70AD (unlike chapter 24, where the coming of the Son of Man is to follow immediately Jerusalem's fall.) And, of course, that none of this (which the text did mean) happened.
• 

  Chalam

  Hi purps,

  WIth respect, why are you concerned with the WT and their view of the end times? I guess you have already realised that nothing they have to say is trustworthy or biblical.

  If you are interested in the end times then can I suggest you have a look here?

  100 Most Frequently Asked Questions about the End Times

  Mike Bickle and IHOP are great. I like Mike's spirit and his view of the end times, he really has a great angle on many things. In fact the whole site has some great Resources

  All the best,

  Stephen