Do you believe in MIRACLES?

by nicolaou 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    On the super-/supra- prefix (BTS, Nicolaou): I really believe this is part of the problem. Why should the extra-ordinary be construed as supra-ordinary, i.e. "above," "higher than" or "superior to" the ordinary (nature, or reason, etc.)? You might as well picture it below (as in depth) or besides (as in "fringe," "margin" or "limit" experience). Why hierarchise the difference?

    I think modern "reason" constructed itself as a totality (if not totalitarian) system in reaction to, but also in imitation of, the totalist imaginary representation of middle-ages monotheism (climaxing in scholasticism). At some point it had to break free from the overarching rule of "supernature". But that was more of a coup than a revolution. The new avatar of the rational logos, the "universal observer" of "science," sat on God's throne to rule on a henceforth unified empire (aka universe). Nothing must escape its judgement. There is no room left for what it doesn't understand. What it cannot explain (yet!) it catalogues.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    On the super-/supra- prefix (BTS, Nicolaou): I really believe this is part of the problem. Why should the extra-ordinary be construed as supra-ordinary, i.e. "above," "higher than" or "superior to" the ordinary (nature, or reason, etc.)? You might as well picture it below (as in depth) or besides (as in "fringe," "margin" or "limit" experience). Why hierarchise the difference?

    Narkissos, you are going to hate me. More C.S. Lewis. The first I ever heard the term subnatural used was in "Miracles", Chapter 3 "The Cardinal Difficulty of Naturalism". I take it he is describing quantum phenomena, which act in a way that seems to betray reason. Merely posted here for your amusement.

    http://www.philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/Intro/csl3.html

    One threat against strict Naturalism has recently been launched on which I myself will base no argument, but which it will be well to notice. The older scientists believed that the smallest particles of matter moved according to strict laws: in other words, that the movements of each particle were 'interlocked' with the total system of Nature. Some modern scientists seem to think--if I understand them--that this is not so. They seem to think that the individual unit of matter (it would be rash to call it any longer a 'particle') moves in an indeterminate or random fashion; [19] moves, in fact, 'on its own' or 'of its own accord'. The regularity which we observe in the movements of the smallest visible bodies is explained by the fact that each of these contains millions of units and that the law of averages therefore levels out the idiosyncrasies of the individual unit's behaviour. The movement of one unit is incalculable, just as the result of tossing a coin once is incalculable: the majority movement of a billion units can however be predicted, just as, if you tossed a coin a billion times, you could predict a nearly equal number of heads and tails. Now it will be noticed that if this theory is true we have really admitted something other than Nature. If the movements of the individual units are events 'on their own', events which do not interlock with all other events, then these movements are not part of Nature. It would be, indeed, too great a shock to our habits to describe them as super-natural. I think we should have to call them sub-natural. But all our confidence that Nature has no doors, and no reality outside herself for doors to open on, would have disappeared. There is apparently something outside her, the Subnatural; it is indeed from this Subnatural that all events and all 'bodies' are, as it were, fed into her. And clearly if she thus has a back door opening on the Subnatural, it is quite on the cards that she may also have a front door opening on the Supernatural-and events might be fed into her at that door too.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    When I wrote my last post I was thinking of QM -- but I didn't mention it because the only thing I know for sure about it is that I don't really understand it...:)

    Btw, I feel that even the relativity theory which is generally perceived as much less threatening to reason invalidates the classical para-theist position of the "universal observer". The space-time is centerless. It can only be observed from an infinity of particular positions.

    Anyway I think C.S. Lewis doesn't follow his argument far enough: imo QM doesn't open a "back door" (or a "basement") to "nature"; it doesn't point to an "outside" of "nature"; it shatters the (basically metaphysical) notion of "nature" entirely. It destroys the antithesis of kosmos and khaos. It reveals that "intelligible nature" and the "reason" which applies to it (through its so-called "laws") are nothing more than a mental, verbal construction projected on reality as an approximation. An empirically working approximation for sure in everyday life and technology. But a basically flawed concept for understanding what anything, let alone everything, is. There is no metaphysics because there is no totality that can be defined as phusis/physis ("nature").

  • snowbird
    snowbird
    When I wrote my last post I was thinking of QM -- but I didn't mention it because the only thing I know for sure about it is that I don't really understand it...:)

    Well, knock me to one knee, and call me Hecate!

    Surely you jest!

    Just kidding.

    That's one of the reasons I tremble when I hear mortal men speak as if they hold the keys of knowledge.

    Boy, I'll bet God has some surprises in store for us!

    Sylvia

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    An empirically working approximation for sure in everyday life and technology. But a basically flawed concept for understanding what anything, let alone everything, is.

    Still, the approximation seems to get better all the time, in terms of explaining the "reality", and this is very useful. As long as we don't get too caught up in maya (your totalitarian post above) we are OK.

    Heheh. I am really enjoying this discussion.

    Boy, I'll bet God has some surprises in store for us!

    Eye has not seen, nor ear heard.

    BTS

  • snapdragon4
    snapdragon4

    Fascinating question!

    I have a Christian friend who is a medical doctor. Some while ago we had a discussion as to whether God heals people today. She assured me He did as she had had personal experience of such healings following prayer. I had no such experience. And a legacy belief I have carried from my JW upbringing is that this sort of thing ceased in the first century.

    My doctor friend and I have a mutual friend at church who is suffering from cancer and before Christmas was given only months to live. Many at church prayed for a healing for her. Two weeks ago she returned to hospital for the results of further tests. She asked the doctor treating her if she'd had a miracle as her friends had been praying for her. The doctor replied that .......the tumours had disappeared!

    The human reaction to miracles is disbelief, scepticism. Acts chapter 12 relates that Peter was in prison and the church was earnestly praying for him. Miraculously Peter escaped and went to the house where people were praying for him. He knocked on the door, a servant girl named Ronda recognised his voice and excitedly announced to everyone Peter was at the door. "You're out of your mind" they told her. And these were the people praying for his release! But Peter kept knocking and when they opened the door and saw him they were astonished - as you would be!

    I leave you to decide whether my friend's healing is a miracle. What I can do is assure you that I'm not out of my mind!

    Snapdragon

  • Barbie Doll
    Barbie Doll

    Did someone say ice cream and Chocolate is a Miracle, when I think about it , It is good .

  • donny
    donny

    I often have heard examples of tumors or various other conditions that get better without explanation, but I believe this to be something that just happens in some folks regardless of religious affiliation, if any. I have heard of Christians, Muslims, Buddists, Atheists and Agnostics having something like stage 4 cancer that then reverses itself and disappears from the body over time. The healings I hear about always seem to be something internal and never external. I have never seen an example where a crippled child can suddenly walk, or someone with a major deformity becoming normal, or someone with missing limbs getting new ones. I will believe in miracles (such as the ones mentioned in scripture) when I see evidence of such verifiable evidence.

    Don

  • PEC
    PEC

    It would be a miracle, if I could have Ice Cream for dinner.

    Philip

  • parakeet
    parakeet
    Do you believe in MIRACLES?

    Yes. The sun rising, the first snowfall, birdsong, autumn colors, ocean waves breaking on the shore, the sound of children playing. These are miracles. What more is needed?

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