My Weak Agnostic Testimony (page 3)

besty

@mindmelda - you seem to be saying that people in Muslim countries 'become' Muslims by default only because they don't have a melting pot of cultures to show them the error of their ways. It's not their fault really....

I agree, most people in an predominately Islamic country would no doubt become Muslim by default.

Can I ask if the historicity of the man Jesus portrayed in the Bible is important to you, or are you more drawn to the message of Jesus as presented in the Bible?

I don't deny the 'wisdom of the crowds' approach to spirituality. Perfectly fine way to go about things. What does Jesus kingdom mean to the average Wiccan these days? Do you look forward to Judgement Day?

@mouthy - I don't want to labor the point too hard but run it by me one more time. You were almost bombed to death, as soon as you were safe from immediate danger you fell on your knees to thank God, for what exactly, given that you didn't see his hand in the events? I'm a bit confused.

NOBODY IN THE WORLD KNOWS WHAT GOD IS GONNA DO
OR WHEN HE IS GONNA DO IT>>>>

I see the attraction of irrational beliefs right there - detail, evidence and facts are all like Jesus in 1914.

PS - I love the irony of you being an "independent thinker" who is not going to change their minds. No sir.

No hard feelings Mouthy - just a bit of banter :-)

flipper

BESTY- Good thread. I too consider myself " strongly " agnostic , probably atheist , but you know what ? It doesn't bother me to know or not to know if there is a God. Not at all. I don't have the need to have every answer of the universe given to me- I enjoy learning as I continue life's journey in my existence. I, myself, individually am responsible for making my life happy and others around me who I can contribute to their happiness as well. Hell- I don't even worry if there is life after death or not. I can't control it- so why worry ? Just make the best of what we've got while we are here ! It's how I roll

besty

@ allelsefails:

Stephen Colbert says "An agnostic is just an atheist without any balls.

That makes most scientists on the planet testicle-lite, metaphorically - they aren't too keen on '100% proved' statements. As I said earlier I'm 99.999% sure God doesn't exist so for that remaining 0.0001% chance he does, I'll describe my position as weak agnosticism.

Does subscribing to Pascals Wager indicate your belief in fiery torment?

What other Gods are you taking into account that also offer fiery torment?

How does Pascals Wager help you choose which fiery-torment provider to throw your hat in with?

How many times can you play your hand in Pascals card club?

allelsefails

For me I would change Pascal's Wager a little. It goes like this. If you're right - there is no God and we end at death. If you're wrong - there is a God and you end at death. (I don't believe in a fiery-torment God)If I'm right - there is a God and we have a chance at future life after death. If I'm wrong - there is no God and we end at death. The reason my balls are gone too is that Pascal's Wager allows you to be an agnostic believer. I can't prove it, but I'll act like God exists - why not? You only get one hand, but you can keep drawing cards until you die. (I'm still trying to draw into an inside straight.) Love your thoughts. Thanks. Allelsefails

mouthy

@mouthy - I don't want to labor the point too hard but run it by me one more time. You were almost bombed to death, as soon as you were safe from immediate danger you fell on your knees to thank God, for what exactly, given that you didn't see his hand in the events? I'm a bit confused.

If you read what I said I fell on my kness & I didnt even believe in a god....
After a bomb falls you are in total shock do stupid things. YOUR CONFUSED !!!! LOL
Want to read my book????
I did not start believing in God until my mind was taken over by two lovely girls

who had been arrested at my door for preaching(JWS) I felt sorry for them
when they came back....By that time I was living in Canada
I had born 4 kids by the time I was 21 yrs old...
It took two years to convince me they had the truth.... It took me two
years after 1987( kicked out) to find out they were liars...

I admit I'm a nut case....But I am a nice one Honest.

No!!!! No hard feeling .I got tough hide...

besty

@allelsefails - taking conscious fiery torment out of the equation weakens the argument considerably. Taking away the downside means its a much less compelling bet to play.

Aside from not helping you chose which of the myriad Gods to place your bet with, Pascals Wager also indicates an 'all in' strategy. Typically at BlackJack for example you shouldn't risk more than 4% of your pot on any one hand. Pascal says 'all in' - live your life as if God exists - and 'all in' is not a good betting strategy unless you know you are going to win.

Given my 99.999% estimate of God not existing it is not logical to go 'all in' at 10,000:1 against. It doesn't even make sense at 50% or 2:1, but once you bring fiery hell back in that changes things. Except not for me.

allelsefails

To me the point of "If I'm wrong" I lose nothing is compelling. It is more like having a free chip and placing it on the 10,000/1 shot in the big race. You have nothing to lose, but everything to gain. However the point swings the other way when you talk about a high control group like JW's. If your "belief in God" causes you to make horrible decisions and waste huge portions of your life on fruitless activity then better the rational atheist life. But if your belief in God leads you to a life of love your neighbor as yourself and a pursuit of an altruistic lifestyle that brings you joy then there is nothing to lose. Prayer to a God who doesn't listen still has psychological benefits to the one praying. Belonging to a community of believers or church still has benefits if God is left out entirely. Again I lose nothing if I'm wrong, but gain everything if I'm right. Maybe .... agnostic believer - allelsefails

besty

@ mouthy - I did read what you had written:

I remember running out to the front of the house there was a grassy area getting on my knees & thanking GOD!!!!

My question stands - what were you thanking him for? If your answer is that you had just been bombed and had no idea what you were doing due to shock then I totally understand that. What I don't understand (in the light of day when we have a chance to ruminate on these things) is the tendency to apportion good and bad things that happen to us to good and bad invisible people in the sky.

besty

@ AEF - seems to me you are making a few logical leaps here:

1 - that you have chosen the right denomination of Christian God

2 - that a bunch of other Christians have got it wrong

3 - that the rest of the non-Christian world definitely have it wrong

4 - that the loving Christian God who doesn't send people to hell will annihilate people that didn't buy his brand when on the earth, no matter how otherwise good they were

5 - that atheists struggle with loving their neighbor and being altruistic

Surely in the loving God scenario the atheist can beg for mercy at the pearly gates?

allelsefails

Those would be logical leaps. I am only referring to the atheist/creationist issue. I might think all religious people have it wrong. All organizations have it wrong. But if I worship God in a way that might be acceptable to him, then I still have the 1/10,000 chance of being right and having an after life. The atheist has only a 1/10,000 chance of being wrong, but if he is right he ends up the same as if I'm wrong. So we both have a 99.999% chance of ending up in the same place, yeah? At least I have the 1/10,000 chance of something more. ideas about christian God or denominations might make the odds longer, but the logic is the same. (I know better than to think belief is more logical, but I still like my odds.) PS - It is great to have a debate with someone who THINKS. I'm so used to JWs regurgitating the WTS it is truly refreshing. I love the Atheist begging for mercy at the pearly gates - I'd give him a 50% chance.

My Weak Agnostic Testimony

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