I like the minimalist philosophy AEF :-)
My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty 67 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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mindmelda
Besty, every atheist I've ever talked to didn't believe in God because they had no tangible evidence of him.
I'm agreeing with that:"there's no probability driven by evidence" for the existence of God. There's also not a sufficient amount of evidence for me NOT to believe, either.
I'm sure that's why the Bible says that faith is not the possession of all people. Its pretty obvious to me it isn't. Just look around...thousands and thousands of perfectly content atheists, agnostics.
Some people don't seem to either posess faith in the supernatural or need it. No doubt in some situations, that's an advantage.
I personally think two people can look at the same thing and one will see "evidence" of God, and the other will not.
And I thought I offered quite a bit of discussion there! It just didn't seem to suit you that I have nothing to debate you about. I essentially agree with you...belief in the intangible, the mystical and the metaphysical is unprovable by the usual scientific method.
You can't detect God with your senses. You can't create an experiment with controls that will prove beyond all doubt that he exists. If you require that for belief, not only is it not belief, but you will definitely be dissatisfied.
If there was an absolute proof of the existence of God or the lack thereof everyone would have quit debating the existence of God by now because it would have been solved one way or another long ago.
I think that's one of the things that makes it the most fascinating subject ever.
Why is this so very important question unanswerable by the usual methods by which we solve problems? That alone is something you can talk about for hours!
What makes me a "believer" is purely subjective and lies in instinctive and supernatural experiences. I have what I think are supernatural experiences and have had them all my life. That's the only way I can categorize them. (Yes, I've been tested for mental illess. LOL )
I'm guessing you have not had these sorts of experiences or have found other explanations that are more satisfying for you.
Being religious or spiritual may simply have to do with having a different mental set up than people who aren't. But whatever causes it, I'm stuck with it.
I tried really hard to be an agnostic for a while because I thought it would be more rational and rationality would make my life simpler and better, because some people do seem to be promising that, and I'll try anything once, twice if I like it. I wasn't abjectly miserable or anything, but I did experience the almost constant feeling that something or SOMEONE was missing from my life.
I believe that is spiritual yearning. I have no idea why I have it, but it seems I must fulfill it.
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besty
Besty, every atheist I've ever talked to didn't believe in God because they had no tangible evidence of him.
The rest of the sentence reads - "and plenty of tangible evidence for an alternative explanation that they find much more compelling."
Why did you miss that out? Just curious. It seems to me that missing it out allows you to develop your theme more naturally.
There's also not a sufficient amount of evidence for me NOT to believe, either.
And there never will be! Based on your previous post it seems that you don't find factual evidence persuasive to inform your belief system:
In other words, you're demanding that I defend my faith, and it needs no defending, because it has nothing to do with your agnosticism. The rational standards of science and the process of logic are admittedly a poor fit to the metaphysical, it's by it's very definition inexplicable and outside of the laws of known physical science and rationality. I consider it an irrational request to even ask someone to "prove" their faith now. It's a paradox!
Which is it? Do beliefs demand evidence or faith? I think we both agree that belief is faith based. So to cite lack of evidence as a reason not to believe is problematic for both of us. Yes? Incidentally based on the logical gyrations in the way you have phrased that 1st sentence I'm guessing my new hobby of NOT collecting stamps is equally valid. :-)
I agree that a true believer can look at some grilled cheese and see the face of the Lord - others may just see grilled cheese :-)
The existence of God is unfalsifiable - you should have been surprised if I did have a lot to say to your eloquent description of your spiritual journey.
Rational minds have moved on from religion and spirituality to answer questions that have an answer - for example the rational evolutionary reason for why we are so obsessed with religion and the afterlife. Now there's something worth debating.....:-)
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allelsefails
Things have moved along quite a bit since my last real post. I do use probability in making decisions, but not all decisions. More than half of marriages end in divorce, but I still got married and have a hope it will last (13 yrs and counting). The odds don't really matter if your playing with house money. There is no disadvantage to belief and worship of God (as long as it does not lead to ridiculous and harmful actions). Certainly an atheist can live a life of altruism and love of neighbor. But if I live a life exactly the same, but believe the good I do is part of my worship to a loving God (of whom I have no proof)and say a few prayers (maybe heard maybe not) - What is the negative for me? Maybe I live forever, maybe I don't. The Atheist still has no hope of "forever".
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allelsefails
Besty I think your logic is good when it comes to God interfering in our lives. My brother died when he was 20 and I was 13. I hate to hear how God saved someone through some tragedy. Why did he save you, your friend, your relative, but not my brother? Screw that God. If God exists as creator who created humans with some future life as a possibility, he has proven that he has no interest in what we're doing now. He certainly didn't save certain people thru a war, but let millions of Jews go to the gas chamber. One scripture I have never argued with - Ecc. 9:11 - "time and unforseen occurrence befall them all" - that is good and bad things happen deal with it.
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besty
ok here's some more to think about allelsefails:
More than half of marriages end in divorce, but I still got married and have a hope it will last (13 yrs and counting).
Good luck. With that specific example I think you need to say more than 50% of marriages where there is no children, the man is over 45 and on his 3rd marriage etc etc end in divorce - not all marriages are equal. But I get your point - you disregarded dismal odds thinking you will be different. Not surprising in itself - more than 50% of drivers rate themselves above average, more than 50% of lawyers feel strongly they will win their next case.
The odds don't really matter if your playing with house money
That's one difference between successful professional gamblers and the rest of us.
There is no disadvantage to belief and worship of God
I don't have mental or temporal bandwidth to waste on dead-ends - like I said in my OP - the last set of invisible characters were adding no value.
as long as it does not lead to ridiculous and harmful actions
that's an innocuous 'as long' you have placed quietly in there :-) see religions track record of not promoting ridiculous and harmful actions. Oh ...you're back already...not much reference material for religion not being harmful and ridiculous. And don't tell me about their charitable missions - the balance of public benefit from religion is clearly so far into the red they would need a stimulus package from God to fix their overdraft.
If you are referring to a non-organized personal compound spirituality such as mindmelda's (with Jesus/Christian God at the top of course - we are all Christians here doncha know) then the behaviours this will produce are indistinguishable from a moral atheist. Of course the atheist won't have the mental baggage of worrying if he is backing the right horse god or worry if he is missing out some vital behaviour specified in the Goat Herders Alamanac from 4000 years ago.
The Atheist still has no hope of "forever".
The atheist has two hopes of 'forever'. Firstly we have already agreed he can beg for understanding at the Pearly Gates - I would argue with more success no matter which God turns out to be the right one. Surely better to explain atheism than convincing Zeus why unfortunately on this occasion you had chosen Jehovah.
Secondly there is a clear technological possibility of 'forever' within my lifetime.
We already have semi-bionic humans kept alive with implanted medical devices. We were stunned by the ability to put our entire music collection on an iPod. A few short years later the iPhone brings every piece of music on the planet to our pocket. Why do you think that 40 years after sequencing the human genome we won;t have found a way to meld man and machine into an immortal lifeform? Don't forget the pace of change is exponentially increasing, and we only have to invent the next smart computer, which will invent the next one and so on. Computers are already designing their successors - the future of salvation is getting brighter every day for atheists - New and Improved with Added Evidence :-)
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besty
One scripture I have never argued with - Ecc. 9:11 - "time and unforseen occurrence befall them all" - that is good and bad things happen deal with it.
I've said my piece on the subject to Mouthy - but yes I agree that the good dying young is sentimental nonsense.
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besty
forgot to add -2 more downsides to belief:
1 - subconscious fatalism and refusal to fully internalize accountability
2 - judgmental (even slight) attitude towards other believers
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allelsefails
Belief in God = Organized Religion. Not for me. Religion leads to ridiculous actions - I can't disagree. I also don't believe in a traditional Christian/Jesus God necessarily. I never thought about telling Zeus why I picked Jehovah - interesting new thought. AS far as forever.... technology has provided us extended lives already. I'd like my life extended indefinitely. However a bomb at the wrong place will end the idea of forever for the atheist but not for the deist. Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that represents an interesting perspective: "I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the universe, in its parts, general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces; the structure of the Earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters and atmosphere; animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles; insects, mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth; the mineral substances, their generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe, that there is in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a Fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their Preserver and Regulator, while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regeneration into new and other forms. We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power, to maintain the universe in its course and order." I hold that "rational minds" can still believe in God's existence without the dogmatism of "religion".
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allelsefails
1 - subconscious fatalism and refusal to fully internalize accountability Can you explain this a little more? I think it is a good point, but I am a bear with little brains and big words bother me :-)