...and the errors and false prophecies of past Wt presoidents are not hearsay/gossip- they are in print.
Are You Paul or are you Saul?
by reniaa 347 Replies latest jw friends
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shamus100
Remember Jesus was called a drunk too
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Rutherford WAS a drunk you bufoon!
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isaacaustin
good call shamus.
In what way would we destroy the JWs reniaa? By refuting their leaderships self-proclaimed authority and false teachings...by freeing their members minds. Certainly not by violence.
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OnTheWayOut
I love the "gossip" excuse. Now it can be said that it is not a fact that Rutherford was a drunkard. Ha Ha.
From now on, I will just aske Reniaa for the answers.Is it possible that....
...The Holocaust never happened, just exaggerated gossip from the Jews and JW's?
...The planet is in a period of getting warmer, so there is no effect of burning fossil fuels on the atmosphere?
...a gunman acting entirely alone shot and killed JFK?
...fossils of plants and animals are just a test from Jehovah or installed by Satan to trick us?
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Mad Dawg
Ren said:
no thx and going over back history of imperfect men is not my idea of fun, If you look for imperfection in imperfection you will find it!
All a ex-Jw can prove by telling how bad such and such a witness was is that they are imperfect men Well! I already knew that.
Spirit guidance doesn't preclude imperfection.
and in fact we are told biblically that we await the time when 'imperfection becomes perfection' While I try not to use imperfection as an excuse I cannot allow it as a Reason to condemn either!
http://www.armageddononline.org/failed_armageddon1.php
Ren my dear, just a few comments and questions now that I have a little time:
Ø First, I find it odd that you would defend your faith with a list that puts your faith on the same level as David Koresh and the Branch Davidians.
Ø Who else on that list is Spirit directed?
Ø If they are the only channel of communication from God, shouldn’t they have the best record of any - even if it is not perfect?
Ø Why do they have the worst record on the list?
Ø Why should I trust my eternal destiny with someone who is wrong every time?
Ø JW’s believe that the GB alone is spiritual enough that they alone can understand the Bible, but they are no better than anyone else. Which is it?
Ø I am willing to condemn EVERY single person on the list, that claimed to speak for God, as a false prophet. Are you willing to do the same?
Ø I am willing to apply any standard that I hold the WTS to, to every other person or religious organization. Do you hold the WTS to the same standards that you apply to other religions?
Ø Reading WT, Awake, meetings and field service aren’t fun either. You would do well to read early WT writings and those of the early Church Fathers. Perhaps you could avoid inadvertantly embarassing yourself by confusing theology as biography.
Ø As I have read many of the writings of Russell and Rutherford, I know more about the early doctrines of your faith than you do.
Ø JW’s would be surprised to learn that they hold to a faith that was founded in Egyptian/ Babylonian paganism. Russell taught that the pyramid was a stone witness equal to the Bible.
Ø I don’t know where you got the idea that the council of Nicea invented the trinity or the deity of Christ, but it is bunk. These doctrines were held long before Nicea.
Ø Arius was excommunicated, not executed.
Ignatius of Antioch – Letter to the Ephesians ca. 100
“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death”
“God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life.”
Hyppolytus - Against Heresies ca. 220
“For this is a peculiarity of the pre-eminence of God, not to stand in need of other instruments for the creation of those things which are summoned into existence. His own Word is both suitable and sufficient for the formation of all things, even as John, the disciple of the Lord, declares regarding Him: All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.”
Hermas - The Shepherd ca.100
“and the son is the Holy Spirit”
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Mr. Majestic
Dacheech makes a fair point destroying someones religion is nothing like a burning building, using that type of analagy is just justifying what you know is unloving actions. Jesus did not destroy the jews in the way you would the witnesses becasue he understood from his father the 'God of love' how to do things in loving way and how to respect people's choices.
Reniaa,
I think that we have come to the end of the limitations of our differing perspectives. I genuinely and honestly don’t see that saving people from the harm and abused of a religion I used to associate with as ‘unloving’. I see it as the complete contrary. Seeing first hand the pain that many members suffered needlessly when I was in it is what drives me now to save these people. That is genuine love of people. I sincerely wish to help these people away from something that I have seen is very abusive.
As for your references about what Jesus and Jehovah did, I can’t equate with characters I no longer believe in. If they are what I believe them to be, i.e. total fantasy, they didn’t actually do a single thing for anybody. It is just a story in a book which didn’t take place. So please excuse me if I don’t stack up to these fantasy figures and what they supposedly did for anyone. I am just trying to do my best with the information I have and make peoples lives better in any way that I can, and if I see people suffering from following a mistaken philosophy and I can help then I lovingly will..
Like I have said before, I am overjoyed to have been able to save the few people that I have from the harmful cult I have just left, and there is not one of them that doesn’t now thank me for showing them the truth about the Jehovah’s Witnesses. All of them prefer knowing. So knowing the benefits of helping these people is what now drives me to help many others, which I intend to do, despite your disapproval, and like Paul said “ the way I am directing my blows is so as not to be striking the air”….
Really enjoyed chatting to you…..
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TD
Ren:
TD are you claiming exceptional circumstances
Not my claim.
I am pointing out that the JW faith is founded upon the idea that things are different and that circumstances in the "Last days" are exceptional. The JW faith is founded upon the idea that it is the restoration of true worship in the time of the end.
The JW faith actively teaches that if you apply the "Test of Gamaliel" to other religions, that is to say, leave them to sink or swim on their own, you will actually be bloodguilty. It would be intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.
I am always wary of the 'We are different now so it's okay to ignore bible teaching?" argument, there is no biblical precident for time being a factor in scriptural observance.
This is not a question of ignoring Bible teaching. Rabbi Gameliel was not a Christian and according to Jehovah's Witnesses, not inspired. He gave very good advice, especially given the situation, but third-person historical narrative recorded in the Bible is not "Bible teaching."
Saul wasn't interested in making them be Jews again he just wanted to destroy them, this is not Jesus's way.
I appreciate the distinction you're drawing between idealogical disagreement and physical violence, but that is a non sequitur in this discussion. No sane person wishes physical violence upon Jehovah's Witnesses.
Also while stamping out apostasy in the manner that Saul attempted to may not be Jesus' way it is most certainly the way of Jehovah's Witnesses. I clearly remember a Watchtower that stated that apostasy was a capital offense but because the law didn't allow for the execution of apostates, the congregation should treat them as dead, which apparently was the next best thing. (I be happy to provide the reference if this is in dispute.)
(To diamonditz)
When witnesses Go on the door they offer the paradise hope and knowledge of Jehovah first and address whatever questions that come up, this is a lot different going from door to door with a saul-like spirit say these people are evil, demons and paedophiles etc. If you cannot see the difference then you haven't read the greek scriptures.
Please! The Witnesses have a past hisotry of going up and down streets with sound cars blasting out an incendiary message. You could point out that they don't do this right now, and I would agree, but I would also have to remind you that to this day the Witnesses are very proud of what they did with those sound cars. They actually see themselves as instrumental in the fulfillment of Bible prophecy and believe that this was one of the "woes" of Revelation that they poured out.
The Witnesses truly, honestly believe that they as an organization were the locust plague of Revelation 9 and that Jehovah granted them the privilege of "tormenting" the religious leaders of Chrstendom. I don't see how anyone claiming to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses could not have studied the chapter entitled "Jehovah's Plagues on Christendom" in the book, Revelation --It's Grand Climax Now at Hand.
Again, Reniaa, I would question whether one of Jehovah's Witnesses has the moral authority to start a thread like this. You cannot cry "foul" when Jehovah's Witnesses receive what they have so graciously given.
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DaCheech
reniaa, again you cannot destroy history by denying it.
there are people who deny the holocost
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OUTLAW
Rutherford "Was" a drunk..........Good call Shamus..................He also died of rectal cancer..As disease often caused by alcohol....................OUTLAW
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shamus100
I don't think it's a good call at all, to tell you the truth.
It's a fact. It's in court documents.
Or did Satan fudge those too?