Jesus.....God or God's son?

by digderidoo 280 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • mdb
    mdb

    My personal view is that these two scriptures do not show that Jesus is God, but that is my personal view which is not rigid (one thing i've learned post JW is not to set your beliefs in stone). So my questions is to those here who believe Jesus is God is why do you believe this? Do you believe that Jesus was the manifestation of God? Or do you see him as divine because he was sent from God or a part of God?

    Sorry this thread turned out in a way you didn't expect. This is a hot topic, always surfaces and is always lengthy. In much of it's context, what has been discussed is along the lines of your original question because for any person to believe that Jesus IS God and that there is only one God means they have to understand that (even though they may not be able to fully comprehend it) the "trinity" doctrine must be true. I think we still have to realize that the "trinity" is a word labeled to a truth found in the scriptures, although not directly identified, that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all shown to be the same Lord (YHWH) in the bible.

    You asked those who do believe that Jesus is God why they believe this. It is inevitable that the trinity debate will surface. There is not enough time or space to explain how I know that Jesus is God by writing a single post, but I'll give it a try for the sake of your question...


    Jesus was (and is) God come in the flesh. He has manifest Himself many times throughout the OT to multiple individuals and has been given many titles. Some are: Mighty God, Almighty God, Angel of the Lord, Lord of Hosts, Redeemer, Savior, Commander of the Lord's army, Creator, Rock. Jesus is not divine only because He was sent from God, but because He is God. Angels (messengers) are sent from God and are not divine.

    I think I'll go through couple of examples to try and show you that Jesus is who He said He was: God. Jesus said that the teachers of the law looked to the scriptures to have eternal life, but that the words in them spoke of Him and that they failed to come to Him that they may have life. Jesus said that Moses wrote about Him and that if they didn't believe what Moses wrote, how would they ever believe the words that Jesus spoke? So, if Jesus is not a liar and Moses wrote about Him, then He must be found in the first 5 books of the bible (which Moses wrote).

    Jesus claimed to be the "I AM" of the old testament. Someone might say that He wasn't claiming to be God. But it is a direct reference to the God who spoke to Moses out of the burning bush and told him to tell the Israelites that "I AM" had sent him to them. We know this is what Jesus meant because the Jews took up stones to kill Him for His blasphemy. Blasphemy is something injuriously spoken against God and the Jews knew exacly what Jesus was trying to convey. The law required that any blasphemer be stoned to death. So is He really the I AM of the OT? That's a big claim. Let's check out the scriptures and see how they reveal who Jesus is...

    You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which

    testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

    Jn 5:39,40

    When Jesus said this to the Jews, the only Scriptures they had were the OT, so the Scriptures that testify of Jesus are the OT and He can be found in them.

    But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

    Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but

    also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

    Jn 5:17

    Jesus made Himself equal with God; making Himself to be God. The Scriptures say that there is none like Him, His glory will be given to no other, only God shall receive worship, and beside Him there is no God - He knows not one. Was Jesus out of line by making such a claim as this – a claim to be equal with God and to be God (Emmanuel – God with us)?

    In the Scriptures (OT), Jesus is called the Lord of hosts:

    In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the

    train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he

    covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and

    said:

    “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; [Jesus]

    The whole earth is full of His glory!”

    And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was

    filled with smoke.

    So I said:

    “Woe is me, for I am undone!

    Because I am a man of unclean lips,

    And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;

    For my eyes have seen the King,

    The Lord of hosts.” [Jesus]

    Isaiah 6:1-5

    These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. [refering to Jesus]

    Jn 12:41

    In Jer 51:19, the Lord of hosts [Jesus] is call the Maker of all things (Heb 1:10; Ps 102:25).

    He has made the earth by His power;

    He has established the world by His wisdom,

    And stretched out the heaven by His understanding.

    The Portion of Jacob is not like them,

    For He is the Maker of all things;

    And Israel is the tribe of His inheritance.

    The Lord of hosts is His name. [Jesus]

    Jer 51:15,19

    And:

    “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,

    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    Heb 1:10 (Ps 102:25 - yhwh)

    It the account of Jacob at Bethel (as one example shown below), the Lord of hosts is also referenced as the Angel of God or Angel of the Lord (Genesis 31:11; Hosea 12:2-5). Understanding that the Lord of hosts and the Angel of the Lord are the same, let's take a look at the account of Abraham when he was called by God to offering up his son Isaac as a sacrifice.

    Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”

    And he said, “Here I am.”

    Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of

    Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”

    Gen 22:1,2

    So, it was God that tested Abraham. The word of God says it. Therefore, it’s true because God does not lie, nor can He lie. God tested Abraham and is the One who said, “take your son and offer him.” Let’s take a close look at Gen 22:11,12,18.

    But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”

    So he said, “Here I am.”

    And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear

    God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

    Gen 22:11,12

    In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

    Gen 22:18

    Who was this Angel of the Lord? God tested Abraham, and it is the Angel of the Lord who said, “you have not withheld you son from Me” and “you have obeyed My voice.” Who did Abraham obey? Abraham obeyed God and the Angel of the Lord was the preincarnate Christ, the same Lord (yhwh) that introduced Himself to Abraham as Almighty God (Gen 17:1), talked and ate with Abraham under the tree in the heat of the day (Gen 18), and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19:24). In Genesis 18, Abraham immediately recognizes the Lord and bows down to Him. How did he know? Because the Lord had earlier shown Himself to him in Genesis 17:1 as Almighty God.


    As another proof, here's the account of Jacob wrestling with God at Bethel...

    “The Lord also brings a charge against Judah,

    And will punish Jacob according to his ways;

    According to his deeds He will recompense him.

    He took his brother by the heel in the womb,

    And in his strength he struggled with God.

    Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed;

    He wept, and sought favor from Him.

    He found Him in Bethel,

    And there He spoke to us

    That is, the Lord God of hosts.

    ~Hosea 12:2-5

    Then the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’ ”

    Then Rachel and Leah answered and said to him, “Is there still any portion or inheritance for us in our father’s house? Are we not considered strangers by him? For he has sold us, and also completely consumed our money. For all these riches which God has taken from our father are really ours and our children’s; now then, whatever God has said to you, do it.”

    ~Gen 31:11-16

    Who is the Angel of God? The Angel of God spoke to Jacob, but it also says that God is the One who spoke to Jacob and in the book of Hosea, it too says that the Lord God of hosts is the One who spoke. The Angel of God is the pre-incarnate Christ, who is God, the Lord God of hosts. Jacob physically wrestled with Him (“…struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel”) and was blessed by him. Later, Jacob says, “I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

    Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”

    But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”

    So He said to him, “What is your name?”

    He said, “Jacob.”

    And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

    Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”

    And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there.

    So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

    ~Gen 32:24-30

    The Scriptures are amazing! As Jesus said, “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” (Jn 5:39,40) Jesus is found throughout the OT and they speak so loudly of Him. As Thomas rightfully believed and professed, He is truly our Lord and our God.

    This is only a sample of why I believe that Jesus is the living God. Before He was born of a virgin and came in the likeness of man, He was known as the Word of God who is God and eternally remains the same; sitting on the right hand of the Father in all His glory wearing an immortal body which was physically raised from the dead as the scriptures said His body would not see decay. He is worthy of all our worship and praise.

    I hope that somewhat answered the question you were attempting to ask in the beginning... if you're still around.

  • undercover
    undercover
    Look around for a non-Trinitarian religion that calls itself Christian. They are all cults. We were part of one once, remember?

    Yep...we were...but I learned from my mistake.

    As for non-trinitarian religions being cults...I agree. I'll go one further: all 'Christian' relgions are cults. So whether it's Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, JW or mountain snake handlers, it's all based on superstition, legend and myth.

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    Amen, mdb!

    Acts 13:48

    When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Harry McCall says...

    In the words of that famous Christian hymn: Only Believe. Only Believe. All things are possible. Only Believe!
    God the Father; God the son; God the Holy Spirit: These three in One. Very God of Very God being of one substance (Homoousios), begotten not made, True God from True God. This very same True God was born by the creature He created (Theotokos: God Bearer or when the Creator created the creature who, in turn, created the Creator in sinful flesh yet without sin): Mary who herself was impregnated by her own Father God so He could be born into the very fallen world of sin the Creator so detested and cursed the created creatures with. In so doing, He became flesh and dwelt among us, but to correct the very Fallen State the Creator cursed the creatures with, the Creator had Himself killed so He as Very God of Very God could shed His own sinless blood for Himself (Creator-Creature atoning to Creator) in order that He could finally accept the world the Creator created in His perfect mind which the Creator had fully planed with fore-knowledge before the foundations of the earth (Gospel of John Chapter 1). The Creator is now seated at the right hand of Himself while making inter-secession to Himself for the fallen creatures of which he had foreknowledge (Supralapsarianism) of before He created the foundations of the cosmos. He, Himself, will now come again to receive this, His fallen creation, unto Himself by re-creating a New Heaven and a New Earth in which the redeemed fallen creatures will also rule with the Creator in a New Jerusalem filled with the very items (Gold and Emeralds: Revelation 21) which produce the greed and lust of the fallen state of the creature the Creator condemned in the old eternal Covernant now replaced with the new eternal Covernant .

    Now dear Christian, just which part of your salvation do you not understand? (Remember, your very soul hangs in the balance between orthodoxy and heresy or between eternal damnation and eternal salvation.)

    May God have mercy on your mental state!

  • BurnTheShips
  • mdb
    mdb

    Sad. You've been greatly damaged by the WT. Have they brainwashed you so long that you don't believe in God anymore? Shame on them!

    I understand what Jesus did and the salvation He offered me (and offers to all who will believe). What you posted comes from someone who has no understanding. God calls those He has chosen. It doesn't make me better than you, just thankful that He chose to save me. In God's foreknowledge He knew men would sin, but that choice was man's to make. He created us anyway out of love and out of that same love gave us the freedom to choose. We chose wrong and God provided a way of redemption. That redemption costed Him a Son, but the gracious gift put before you is free if you choose to accept it.

    Again, what you posted doesn't cause me to question my faith. All I see is a lost soul painfully damaged by a deceptive organization that errs in claiming to be God's spokesperson.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt
    Again, what you posted doesn't cause me to question my faith.

    Are you referring to the Harry McCall quote?

    The author of those words was attempting to introduce a bit of levity into a subject considerd quite confusing by many folks, believers and non-believers.

    Please don't take it too seriously.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Can somebody fix this thread pleeze?

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    I think I mostly agree with Michael Shermer on some of these weighty issues.

    ". . . it is okay to say, "I don't know," "I'm not sure" and "Let's wait and see.""
    "So for the time being, it comes down to cognitive or emotional preference: an answer with only negative evidence or no answer at all. God, multiverse or Unknown. Which one you choose depends on your tolerance for ambiguity and how much you want to believe. For me, I remain in sublime awe of the great Unknown."
  • mdb
    mdb
    Are you referring to the Harry McCall quote?

    Yes I was.

    And oh, look... I figured out the quote box.

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