by AllTimeJeff 72 Replies latest watchtower bible
LOL @ reniaa and Josie's replies!
Jeff I think I get what you were getting at in your OP. I sometimes find it irritating too.
A person's own words and actions should speak for themselves, not always needing a scripture as backup - that can sometimes tip into an air of self-righteousness or perceived superiority over others - and thus achieves nothing.
"preach the Gospel wherever you go - use words if necessary." Francis of Assisi
Hi Jeff,
Thanks again. See below :)
Unproveable. Contradictions don't disappear because someone gives personal revelation. It says to me that, even if you are right (and you are not) that god plays a very cruel cat and mouse game with how we get to know him, and who he actually allows to know him, given this contrived formula you postualte.
I understand. A good case in point is Jesus and peace. I just brought you two scriptures, one which say Jesus will bring peace, He is called Prince of Peace and another which Jesus Himself says He will not bring peace but division. I could give you knowledge which would explain the two verses and what they are talking about. However, you need the Spirit so you can read the bible and understand what it says for yourself.
Unproveable, and disputed as to how this works by the various Christian religions. Your view is no more or no less to be considered "gospel" then their's.
Whatever anyone says, what is the bible really saying? That is what you need. Holy Spirit revelation and the bible says that itself.
Being born again? Another widely interpreted concept. And therin lies the problem. Always interpretation is needed. There is no good reason for "god" to do it this way. Your interpretation Chalam, no matter how sincere, is just that, just another interpretation.
I am not into interpretation but truth. That is an offense now to exJWs because of the WT perversion. If God exists and He doesn't lie then the ultimate truth is with Him and what He has to say.
Interesting take on the WTBTS. I think they don't give a shit about anything but themselves. Holy spirit is a bait and switch tactic. Trust me, they have seen too much of their own BS blow up in their face to believe in it that much.....
The WT elevate themselves to take the position of Jesus and His Spirit. If you recall their teaching, I am sure this will ring true.
No, the simple direct answer is the correct one. The "answer" to the contradictions and ambiguity being holy spirit providing revelation is a convenient cop out. The bible is as it appears to be: 66 seperate works strung together in an odd coincidence of antiquity. 2000 years after its completion, and 1600 years after being made into its final form, we are still stuck in this society with the erroneous idea that it has value, merit, when history teaches that it merits nothing more then scorn.
You have to choices. Exercise a little faith, suspend your disbelief for a moment have a read and pray yourself. If not, dismiss the bible and move on like others do.
The bible is a mish mash of superstition. Your argument about holy spirit misses the point. You acknowledge, even tacitly, that it can't be taken at face value. Even though we were created by god to accept things at face value. Which leads to this interesting analogy....
I think if you take the New Testament at face value that is pure faith, just like kids have. You need the Spirit but He comes to us all when we seek God.
No, questions at school were told that they would be answered in time, not put off until some power inhabited our minds. One fact leads to another.
The bible says the same! I would find it for you but I guess you are scriptured out?! It is in 1 Corinthians 13 if you are interested.
The bible does not suffer from this burden, relating to facts as to its claims. They are nothing more then claims of a superstitious, supernatural nature. There are no "facts" involved. Holy Spirit is something to hide behind when you run out of falsly premised explanations.
OK we agree to differ.
Huh? Thats really bad news for the millions of Israelites who (supposedly) lived out a milleniums old drama for the benefit of us today? Bull! If that is true, how in the hell would I be drawn to god? It simply isn't necesarry for god to teach in this manner.
Once again, you don't know the bible! I don't mean to be rude here. The NT explains all that. Abraham and others in the OT were justified by faith, not observing the law.
However, men, perpetuating a myth, do need the cover of milleniums to adapt their superstition to a new generation who wants to rely on others instead of their own mind.
No, the bible doesn't do that. Their is no holy spirit that does this. And your hiding behind scriptures, with all respect, continues to raise more questions. Or to be more blunt, it absolutely proves that the bible is anything but the inspired word of a supernatural god.
Well I have lived for twenty years without faith in Jesus. For the last four years I have lived with it. I would swap those 20 for the last 4 any day. That is my experience, and I cannot deny it, I am sorry!
For example, I can tell you eating from a chocolate fountain tastes great. You might look at it and think it looks like liquid dog crap, please excuse the expression but I am trying to make a point. Until you exercise some faith and try it for yourself we are going to argue all day long about the theory and you are going to conclude "it will taste like crap".
All the best,
Stephen
But who determines what constittutes "All Scripture "?
Donny
Stephen
I appreciate the give and take. Obviously, we aren't going to change each others mind, but here are a couple of points I wish to respond to.
I am not into interpretation but truth. That is an offense now to exJWs because of the WT perversion. If God exists and He doesn't lie then the ultimate truth is with Him and what He has to say.
Regrettably, there are others with their own interpretations who would disagree with you. It doesn't really do much for either side when you or holy spirit is called for, and god could simplify things very much.
Are you saying we should take your word for it?
You have t(w)o choices. Exercise a little faith, suspend your disbelief for a moment have a read and pray yourself. If not, dismiss the bible and move on like others do.
No, I have another option, having done the first two. I wish to point out that the bible is not true on occasion when scriptures are offered as it were as real as the chair I am sitting on.
Frankly, bible believers are fond of the "2 option" system. "this or that." I am much more open to anything other then 2 options. In this case, there are definitely more then believe or leave it alone. I won't move on. Sorry.
Once again, you don't know the bible! I don't mean to be rude here. The NT explains all that. Abraham and others in the OT were justified by faith, not observing the law.
Stephen, the OT interpretation by Paul is just that, another interpretation. As to the ideas Paul puts out there as to the dramas represented, how sacrifices pointed to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and the like, I understand the concepts. I reject them, because they make no sense and are unnecessary. The perpetrate a myth that we are cut off from god as sinners. The elaborateness of the sacrifices of the OT, or the willingness to suspend your thinking abilities with the Christ sacrifice of the NT are both designed as control mechanisms over people.
If Abraham got a free pass because of faith, why not the Israelites? That is the group that got the short end of the stick. I feel bad for them.
Well I have lived for twenty years without faith in Jesus. For the last four years I have lived with it. I would swap those 20 for the last 4 any day. That is my experience, and I cannot deny it, I am sorry!
And I am not asking for that. I find your faith perfectly fine. I find your public postulations very questionable. Tell me about the last 4 years, and I will be a very happy man for you.
But you, and others, just quote scriptures all the time. You have made it very clear why you do this, I am simply pointing out where there is a real conflict.
I find faith and spirituality a very necessary thing frankly. But Jesus isn't the only way. Sorry. There are close to 7 billion people who I think demonstrate this fact very well. And personally, as one who has seen different parts of the world, and their different faiths, its a bit offensive. They are just as much at peace as you are, believing as they do. For the simple accident of where a person is born, you can find out what faith they will profess.
Nothing personal, but faith by itself will never get a free pass with me. Especially if you are going to share it with the certainty that you do on this forum. I don't do it to be pissy, its the honest thing to do. Same with showing the bible to be as contradictory as it is.
Appeal to authority only works if other people recognize and give weight to the authority being appealed to.
If a poster consistently quoted Mohammed, I suppose the forum would nearly unanimously be unimpressed. Quoting Dawkins to a bunch of creationists would similarly be of no use.
I suppose some people don't realize that many of us reject the Bible as the final arbiter of what is right and wrong. Or maybe they don't care. Maybe it just makes them feel good. Perhaps it's a force of habit. Whatever the case may be, it doesn't bother me too much. I just judge the merits of the poster's opinions independently of the scripture being cited.
mrs jones, your lack of understanding or reasoning is awesome!
Appeal to authority only works if other people recognize and give weight to the authority being appealed to.
If a poster consistently quoted Mohammed, I suppose the forum would nearly unanimously be unimpressed. Quoting Dawkins to a bunch of creationists would similarly be of no use.
Thank you for summarizing in 3 sentences what it took me a chapter and a half to say.
I suppose some people don't realize that many of us reject the Bible as the final arbiter of what is right and wrong. Or maybe they don't care. Maybe it just makes them feel good. Perhaps it's a force of habit. Whatever the case may be, it doesn't bother me too much. I just judge the merits of the poster's opinions independently of the scripture being cited.
I think it makes them feel good. It doesn't bother me either per se. I guess I can't say that is the case today. (obviously) But I wish bible thumpers would realize that their opinions mean far more to me then any scripture they can throw out.
I can quote too. I might have to start doing that to demonstrate that the bible does contradict itself.
Hi Jeff,
I appreciate the give and take. Obviously, we aren't going to change each others mind, but here are a couple of points I wish to respond to.
That's cool. It is not my job either but the Holy Spirit's :) I just need to life up the name of Jesus.
Regrettably, there are others with their own interpretations who would disagree with you. It doesn't really do much for either side when you or holy spirit is called for, and god could simplify things very much.
I agree. Many people out there claiming "the truth". I was thinking about the analogy I left you with. After being told you were eating chocolate by the WT and you found out you were feeding on a diet of crap you are going to be very careful, I respect that.
Are you saying we should take your word for it?
Well I am saying give it a go and see for yourself.
No, I have another option, having done the first two. I wish to point out that the bible is not true on occasion when scriptures are offered as it were as real as the chair I am sitting on.
The WT claimed to have a nice comfy seat that would take you on a journey. In actually fact they had you sit on a chair with wonky legs with woodworm. After a while it collapsed leaving you flat on your backside in pain. Also, the journey was going in the wrong direction, they were totally lost, even though they kept saying "in a few more years we will get there, jehovah is giving us the directions". Just because that chair turned out to be a poor option, it doesn't mean you want to stand up for the rest of your life do you?! It gets pretty tiring.
Frankly, bible believers are fond of the "2 option" system. "this or that." I am much more open to anything other then 2 options. In this case, there are definitely more then believe or leave it alone. I won't move on. Sorry.
OK stick around. I agree, the bible is worth its weight in gold or it is all horse crap. Just because there are others with a similar claim who are obviously feeding us horse crap, it does not mean that I am of the same ilk.
Stephen, the OT interpretation by Paul is just that, another interpretation. As to the ideas Paul puts out there as to the dramas represented, how sacrifices pointed to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and the like, I understand the concepts. I reject them, because they make no sense and are unnecessary. The perpetrate a myth that we are cut off from god as sinners. The elaborateness of the sacrifices of the OT, or the willingness to suspend your thinking abilities with the Christ sacrifice of the NT are both designed as control mechanisms over people.
I do not buy the interpretation idea. Either what Paul was saying was true or it is a load of crap, I see no middle ground. Excuse the running theme!
If Abraham got a free pass because of faith, why not the Israelites? That is the group that got the short end of the stick. I feel bad for them.
One again, this is not meant to be rude but you don't know your bible, or at least you haven't had the revelation that the Spirit brings. Here is a whole chapter of them listed to get you started Hebrews 11
And I am not asking for that. I find your faith perfectly fine. I find your public postulations very questionable. Tell me about the last 4 years, and I will be a very happy man for you.
OK I will bear that in mind. Did you read my post here at all? Personal experience of accepting Jesus as God, how was it for you?
That will give you a taste of the last four years. In short, life isn't perfect but I have peace now where I had none, I have purpose now where I had , I have love where I had very little, I have freedom where I had none etc.
I find faith and spirituality a very necessary thing frankly. But Jesus isn't the only way. Sorry. There are close to 7 billion people who I think demonstrate this fact very well. And personally, as one who has seen different parts of the world, and their different faiths, its a bit offensive. They are just as much at peace as you are, believing as they do. For the simple accident of where a person is born, you can find out what faith they will profess.
Nothing personal, but faith by itself will never get a free pass with me. Especially if you are going to share it with the certainty that you do on this forum. I don't do it to be pissy, its the honest thing to do. Same with showing the bible to be as contradictory as it is.
If Jesus is not the only way then He is a liar and we can dismiss Him, His Father and the bible and move on to something better.
Jesus is very exclusive but He wants us all to be included, another paradox to get our heads around! The bible puts it plain and simple.
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
All the best,
Stephen
Hi Stephen. I have to say, you are my favorite apologist..... (no sarcasm there....)
One again, this is not meant to be rude but you don't know your bible, or at least you haven't had the revelation that the Spirit brings. Here is a whole chapter of them listed to get you started Hebrews 11
Stephen, you do realize that this chapter is 2000 years old, describing events at least 1000 years older then that date, concerning "miracles" that occurred thanks to "faith"? This doesn't prove anything. It's a recap, and one anyone could have written.
It doesn't surprise me that the concept of faith needs defending, evidentally, Paul saw that way back when. But again, the charecters Paul mentioned here are not the Israelites as a people, used as a guniea pig experiment on faith, sin and sacrifices.
It doesn't surprise me that you defend what brings peace to you. I hope you are not surprised that I point out what has not brought peace to me and others.
I read this chapter 11 so many times, and for my own reasons. not JW ones. Your point is lost on me.
If Jesus is not the only way then He is a liar and we can dismiss Him, His Father and the bible and move on to something better.
Jesus is very exclusive but He wants us all to be included, another paradox to get our heads around! The bible puts it plain and simple.
Yeah, you seem to love paradox's as if they prove your point.
One or the other? What about the very real possibility of Jesus being a great man, whose myth and legend was blown out of proportion by his followers, like how the GOP treats Reagan?
By that count, thats at least 3 options right there. I don't think Jesus is a lie. I think how his legend has evolved is. Thats all.
One aspect of this issue is that:
Most of the scripture quoting is done to justify positions in Christian vs Athiest/Agnostic arguments. Since Agnostics/Athiests don't generally accept scripture as proof of anything - it seems kinda like spitting into the ocean. It is additionally irratating to those who don't accept the Bible as 'God's inspired word' to have it presented as 'evidence' of some sort.
If Bible thumpers thump each other, so be it. If they thump me, I generally ask them for support outside the Bible - which of course they never present, since the Bible is their sole weapon.
Around and around the circular reasoning goes "You must believe the Bible because the Bible says this......." ad nauseum.
Jeff
