Regarding Quoting Scriptures All the Time

by AllTimeJeff 72 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Deputy Dog

  ATJ

  Anyone can read my posts on this thread and see if I mocked a passage.

  I never said "you" did.
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  AllTimeJeff

  Would a personal experience with God, such as sensing his presence in the same room with you count?

  Well, only if it is kept personal. There has to be some sort of intellectual honesty that acknowledges the lack of ability to prove anything that such personal moments with "god" reveal. A substantial amount of trepidation must come with this, as anyone can say that they had god speak to them.

  Problem is, for alot of people, those that have the attitude, "I won't believe it unless I actually see it, smell it, touch it and taste it."

  I don't find this a problem, I find it a helpful guide to what is real.

  For some, I guess, faith is useless for them because they're nothing substantial for them.

  Yes, that is true.
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  AllTimeJeff

  I never said "you" did.

  Thats fine.

  What was the relevance of your quote in relation to what we were discussing then?
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  Awakened at Gilead

  Would a personal experience with God, such as sensing his presence in the same room with you count?

  You can use a personal experience as just that, a personal experience. But don't expect others to believe just because you have had a personal experience.

  Problem is, for alot of people, those that have the attitude, "I won't believe it unless I actually see it, smell it, touch it and taste it."

  Is there a problem with that?

  For some, I guess, faith is useless for them because they're nothing substantial for them.

  I don't understand what you are writing here. Your pronouns don't match.

  But if you are saying that some reject faith for the sake of rejecting faith, you must realize that many people are not going to take other people's word for something. Even in the Bible this is considered a virtue at times:

  (Numbers 16:28-30) . . .Then Moses said: "By this YOU will know that Jehovah has sent me to do all these deeds, that it is not of my own heart: 29 If it is according to the death of all mankind that these people will die and with the punishment of all mankind that punishment will be brought upon them, then it is not Jehovah that has sent me. 30 But if it is something created that Jehovah will create, and the ground has to open its mouth and swallow up them and everything that belongs to them and they have to go down alive into She´ol, YOU will then know for certain that these men have treated Jehovah disrespectfully."

  (Exodus 4:8-9) . . .And it must occur that," to quote him, "if they will not believe you and will not listen to the voice of the first sign, then they will certainly believe the voice of the later sign. 9 Still, it must occur that, if they will not believe even these two signs and will not listen to your voice, then you will have to take some water from the Nile River and pour it out on the dry land; and the water that you will take from the Nile River will certainly become, yes, it will indeed become blood on the dry land."

  (Isaiah 7:10-11) 10 And Jehovah went on speaking some more to A´haz, saying: 11 "Ask for yourself a sign from Jehovah your God, making it as deep as She´ol or making it high as the upper regions."

  (2 Kings 20:8-11) . . .Meantime, Hez·e·ki´ah said to Isaiah: "What is the sign that Jehovah will heal me and I shall certainly go up on the third day to the house of Jehovah?" 9 To this Isaiah said: "This is the sign for you from Jehovah that Jehovah will perform the word that he has spoken: Shall the shadow actually go forward ten steps [of the stairs] or should it go back ten steps?" 10 Then Hez·e·ki´ah said: "It is an easy thing for the shadow to extend itself ten steps, but not that the shadow should go backward ten steps." 11 At that Isaiah the prophet began to call out to Jehovah; and he made the shadow that had gone down gradually go back on the steps, that is, on the steps [of the stairs] of A´haz, ten steps backward.
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  Deputy Dog

  What was the relevance of your quote in relation to what we were discussing then?

  You asked, about people quoting scripture.
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  AllTimeJeff

  You asked, about people quoting scripture.

  Ok. Sounds good. I didn't get it I guess......
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  Chalam

  Hi Jeff,

  OK, some more replies :)

  I know you don't want to accept the fact that this is cruel, but this is cruel of "god". I know you won't question your invisible god's wisdom, but I will.

  Neither did I! I explained this before I think. I argued with God about eternal torment and if the punished really fitted the crime. I think it was a few posts back or else another thread?

  What faith was required of the Israelites? None. The law makes that very clear. Keep up with tithing, animal sacrifices, the keeping of the myriad of cruel laws, and you were ok. (don't forget to respect the priesthood....)

  Once again, with respect you do not know your bible or else you do not understand it. I need to quote it so hopefully you will

  Galatians 3:10-14 (New International Version)

  10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

  The fact that you acknowledge that according to Paul, the law was made to make sin manifest (i.e. give us an idea of what god didn't like) shows how uninspired it really is. This is not the wisdom from above. If it was your plan all along to have faith be your cornerstone, why put forth a Law that promoted works for close to 2,000 years.

  Galatians 3:15-25 (New International Version)

  The Law and the Promise

  15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

  19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

  21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

  23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

  Why say faith is so important, write Heb 11, and then have the entire OT promote a works based religion that supposedly appeased god? Only if faith wasn't the big deal that Paul says it is. Paul needed to claim the OT Law for HIS version of Christianity, that his law and version of Christianity was now foremost.

  Paul got his revelation directly from Christ 2 Corinthians 12 Paul's gospel is the gospel or Christ!

  You could see that for yourself if you read up on it a little more, but you have made very clear that you are satisfied with a surface reading of the bible, and that you are willing to disregard clear history and scholarship regarding the origins of the NT letters of Paul, and the circumstances surrounding them.

  I disagree. The things Paul wrote were in many cases directly the same as the very words of Jesus Himself. The number of times I have read Paul's words and though of something Jesus said in the gospels is numerous. Some scholar is going to come up with "contradictory" statements probably but they are the kind of scholar that perceive Jesus to have contradicted Himself.

  This is why the simple quoting of scriptures is not satisfactory, other then to inform me of how you have limited yourself.

  I think you know the bible well but have very limited revelation. That might sound harsh so my apologies. As I mentioned before, the bible is a spiritual book. You can know all the facts, history, chapter and verse but still not perceive one drop of the spirituality. It is like the parables that Jesus spoke in. You can know the story that Jesus told but not have a clue what He was going on about. Even the disciples didn't at times! They were spiritual babies and revelation came later for some things as the Holy Spirit reminded them what Jesus said.

  Thank goodness they weren't grafted into the cruel Law that YHWH made for them.

  I agree. I don't fancy all that sacrificing and stuff!

  I don't say this to offend you, but what you defend is an interpretation of who "god" is to you, from the same book that JW's interpret their god from. Like JW's, you use the bible, even your own version of it, you take scriptures and quote them all the time as evidence, and interpret them in a manner that you see fit and are comfortable with.

  Here lies a problem and the answer. The difference either proves that either JWs are getting the spiritual message of the book, else born again Christians are or else there is no spiritual side to the book. Looking at the evidence, the majority would agree that option 1 has failed (JWs). That leaves option 2 or option 3.

  JW's have a feel of superiority and certainty because their god is "Jehovah". You have a feel of superiority and certainty because your god is "Jesus". Both sides can quote scriptures, both sides seem unwilling to look at real history and instead feel just fine relying on the bible alone.

  I am cool with history but I don't put the whole of my faith on it, I prefer the living God. For example, there are some out there who will tell you the Holocaust never happened in World War II. I parallel that kind of view to the JW beliefs of the bible.

  Bible advocates have had hundreds, thousands of years, to demonstrate the superiority of their book and their faith. HISTORY demonstrates the benefit to the world, or lack therof.

  I agree. My personal history demonstrates the benefit. If that isn't true then I am wasting my time.

  Stephen, the bible and your interpretation of it might make you a better person, and to this I congratulate you. My point is, you don't need the bible or faith to receive what you claim to have. Billions of people living right now bear eloquent testimony to this.

  I humbly disagree. My life would be the same now, four years on save Jesus came. Now it is like a brand new book I am in. The same difference as the Old Testament is to the New, B.C. and A.D.

  Funny, I don't need faith, and I think it is an impossible thing to defend. Such as it is.

  Well you do it you really want to get to the bottom of the bible and the issue of God, it is essential. If you just want to debate and pass the time then surely there are better things to do in life than discuss the ins and outs of some ancient book?!

  These are your personal assertions without factual backup. It is also a cop out. Believe in him if you want, but don't make such claims, come up against the holes of your own explanations, then walk away saying that the invisible deity is "different things at different times" and that he is 'beyond human understanding'.

  I understand. If you get to see the B.C. and A.D. for a born again Christian you will surely get your "proof". That will either draw you closer or push you away, or both at the same time! My wife said it was the end of our 20 year relationship 4 years ago when I started reading the bible.

  About a year or so later, after praying for her every day she told my daughter and I that she was coming to church with us that morning. As soon as she arrived the tears flowed. Before too long she was born again. That is the kind of proof.

  We are like day compared to night now. Not that life is perfect or that we are, far from it but we have life now, spiritual life. It is not the kind of life that comes from following rules, trying hard to be good, doing lots of good works and stuff, no you need the Spirit of Christ first and then the good stuff follows, some of it quite quickly and other areas painfully slowly! We have our freewill still...

  We don't know how time, space, matter etc came into existence. We do know that in the last 150 years that Science, freed from the fetters of biblical superstition, have made amazing strides in learning about and explaining these things. The bible can't hold a candle to it.

  I disagree. I have been in the atheism threads a little but I keep out largely. When science can answer the "big questions" I will be impressed. However, the absolutes of science never seem quite so absolute. History has shown that time and time again. Also, knowledge just seems to bring more questions, not just answers.

  Yes there is. His adherants made him a legend, into something he wasn't. It explains a lot. Even the Pharissees in the Gospels thought that Jesus disciples would try to make good on the legend of his resurrection. An interesting inclusion of scripture in my view.

  So your viewpoint is that Jesus was just some deluded dude at best or a pathological liar at worst?

  Um, yes.

  So why are you holding out from being an atheist? Do you have another preferred option for God or "gods" to the biblical one?

  My point is, in the context of this thread, that your scriptures are indeed questionable, and to offer them as you do, (i.e. as an unquestioned fact that shouldn't be challenged) has certainly caught my crosshairs.

  You can challenge them but that is not the way forward. The best thing to do it to test out, see if they work!

  It is like a science experiment. You can think of all the reason why water will not boil at 100 degrees centigrade , debate them at length but that is not a good idea. The best idea to test the theory is to get some water, fire up the bunsen burner and thermometer at the ready :)

  1 John 5:6-12 (English Standard Version)

  Testimony Concerning the Son of God

  6 This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  designs

  Yes folks, you to can believe in the Roastadora God.

  Somebody needs to read a little of the essays of the Open Theists, it kind of turns the A/C on Hell.
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  AllTimeJeff

  Stephen

  Harrison Ford once told George Lucas, who wrote some incredibly stiff lines in the Star Wars scripts (and calling some of the dialouge "stiff" would be a compliment) "George, you can write this 'stuff', but you sure as hell can't say it."

  Stephen, you can believe this stuff, but that sure as hell doesn't make it so.

  I will let your comments stand, as we are starting to go round and round, you post a scripture, I dispute it. I am sure we will have opportunity to do this on other threads.... I have had my say, and am satisfied with that.

  I will leave off with one statement you directed toward me.

  I think you know the bible well but have very limited revelation. That might sound harsh so my apologies. As I mentioned before, the bible is a spiritual book. You can know all the facts, history, chapter and verse but still not perceive one drop of the spirituality.

  I will leave this for anyone reading to charecterize on their own. Needless to say, I not only disagree, but happily find myself viewed in this way by you.

  Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
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  Chalam

  Hi Jeff,

  No stress :)

  I guess your conclusion is that the bible does not reveal God. It is just an interesting (and sometimes not so interesting) old book of history, proverbs and the like?

  In that case the bible either lies about what Jesus said and did or else Jesus was lying himself?

  Either way, we can discount it or Jesus if that is the case because if you accept one lie then you open the possibility that it is all lies.

  You know my view, not only do I believe them both but I believe the practical agrees with the theory.

  Anyhow, like you say, we are getting dizzy! My head spins enough responding to the JW apologists ;)

  You have sown your seeds and I have sown mine. Let's see if anything germinates...

  All the best,

  Stephen