I'd have to agree with the apostle Thomas when he said, "My Lord and My God!" - he didn't say "My Lord and a god!" and Jesus did not refute his statement by saying, "I am not God. If I gave you that impression then you were mistaken. I am just a angel." No. Jesus blessed Thomas for his discovery.
Would a definite article prove that Jesus is God?
by solafide 164 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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PSacramento
Deputy dog,
Am I fit to judge God?
Well, if God has the same traits as I do and same failings (wrath) then the question becomes, is GOD fit to JUDGE ME ?
I am very interested in justice, I just don't equate it with wrath.
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PSacramento
I am curious, how does the WT address what Thomas said ?
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Deputy Dog
PS
What wrong with anger or wrath? You want a God that's less than human.
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Narkissos
WT 10/1 1962:
Teachers of the Trinity doctrine will argue that the Godship of Jesus Christ is proved by the words of the apostle Thomas in John 20:28. Thomas had told the other apostles that he would not believe that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead until Jesus materialized before him and let him put his finger in the print of the nails by which he had been fastened to the stake and until he thrust his hand into Jesus’ side, where a Roman soldier had jabbed him with a spear to make sure of Jesus’ death. So the following week Jesus reappeared to the apostles and told Thomas to do as he had said, to convince himself. "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." (AV) In the original Greek text this expression literally reads, word for word: "The Lord of me and the God of me."
So the trinitarians argue that Thomas’ expression "the God" spoken to Jesus proved that Jesus was the very God, a God of three Persons. However, Professor C. F. D. Moule says that the article the before the noun God may not be significant so as to mean such a thing. Regardless of that fact, let us take into account the situation back there to be sure of what the apostle Thomas meant.
Less than two weeks previously Thomas had heard Jesus pray to his heavenly Father and say: "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, AV) On the fourth day after that prayer, or on his day of resurrection, Jesus sent a special message to Thomas and the other disciples by means of Mary Magdalene. "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her." (John 20:17, 18, AV) So from Jesus’ prayer and from this message through Mary Magdalene, Thomas knew who his own God was. His God was not Jesus Christ, but his God was the God of Jesus Christ. Also his Father was the Father of Jesus Christ. Thus Thomas knew that Jesus had a God whom he worshiped, namely, his heavenly Father.
How, then, could Thomas in an ecstasy of joy at seeing the resurrected Jesus for the first time burst out with an exclamation and speak to Jesus himself as being the one and only living, true God, the God whose name is Jehovah? How could Thomas, by what he spoke, mean that Jesus was himself "the only true God" or that Jesus was God in the Second Person of a Trinity? In view of what Thomas had heard from Jesus and had been told by Jesus, how can we read such a meaning into Thomas’ words: "My Lord and my God"?
Jesus would have reproved Thomas if Jesus had understood that Thomas meant that he, Jesus, was "the only true God" whom Jesus had called "my God" and "my Father." Certainly Jesus would not take a title away from God his Father or take away the unique position from God his Father. Since Jesus did not reprove Thomas as if addressing him in a wrong way, Jesus knew how to understand Thomas’ words, Scripturally. And so did the apostle John.
John was there and heard Thomas exclaim: "My Lord and my God." Did John say that the only thing for us to conclude from Thomas’ words was that Jesus was God, "the only true God" whose name is Jehovah? (Ps. 35:23, 24) Here would have been an excellent place for John to explain John 1:1 and say that Jesus Christ, who was the Word made flesh, was God himself, that he was "God the Son, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity." But is that the conclusion that John reached? Is that the conclusion to which John brings his readers? Listen to the conclusion that John wants us to reach:
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye might believe." That we might believe what? "That Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."—John 20:29-31,AV.
In his life account of Jesus John wrote the things to persuade us to believe, not that Jesus is God, that Christ is God, or that Jesus is "God the Son," but that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." The trinitarians designedly twist things by saying "God the Son." But we take John’s explanation the way that he words it, namely, "Christ, the Son of God." We follow John to the same conclusion that he reached, that Jesus is the Son of the One whom Jesus calls "my Father" and "my God," in this same twentieth chapter of John. Hence Thomas was not worshiping "God the Father" and "God the Son" at one and the same time as equals in a "triune God."
Thomas worshiped the same God whom Jesus Christ worshiped, namely, Jehovah God, the Father. So if Thomas addressed Jesus as "my God," Thomas had to recognize Jesus’ Father as the God of a God, hence as a God higher than Jesus Christ, a God whom Jesus himself worshiped. Revelation 4:1-11 gives a symbolic description of this God, the "Lord God Almighty," who sits upon the heavenly throne and who lives forever and ever; but the next chapter, Revelation 5:1-8, describes Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God who comes to the Lord God Almighty on his throne and takes a scroll out of God’s hand. This illustrates the meaning of Jesus’ words to Thomas and the other apostles: "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." (John 14:28, AV) Jesus thus recognized his Father as the Lord God Almighty, without an equal, greater than his Son.
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PSacramento
Deputy Dog,
There is nothing wrong with Wrath or anger, Jesus got a tad upset with the moneylenders and laid the kaibosh on them.
I just don't think of God or Jesus in that light, wrath is not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of God and Jesus, it is probably the last thing.
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PSacramento
Thanks Narkissos :)
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Deputy Dog
PS
I just don't think of God or Jesus in that light, wrath is not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of God and Jesus, it is probably the last thing.
You don't read your bible enough.
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Earnest
sacolton : Jesus blessed Thomas for his discovery.
sacolton, what I find really odd about Thomas' comment, whatever it is that he meant, is that no-one batted an eyelid. There was no discussion about it, no-one agreed or disagreed with it. In fact it was totally ignored. Immediately after Thomas sees the marks in his hands and side and says "My Lord and my God", Jesus says to him :
Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.
Jesus is talking about his resurrection. That is what Thomas had doubted. I agree an argument can be made for the fact that Jesus did not comment on Thomas' statement but consider the vast difference between this reaction and that of Jesus when he was asking the disciples to identify who/what he was. In Matthew 16 when Peter identifies him as "the Christ, the son of the living God", he responds "Happy you are [because] my Father who is in the heavens [revealed this to you]". The contrast with Thomas could hardly be greater.
Narkissos : Characters, situations and dialogues are clearly set up to make the author's theological point
Narkissos, this is the thing that puzzles me about Thomas' remark. When reading other discussions on Jesus' relationship with God (in John's Gospel) John demonstrates at some length the point he is trying to get across. A reading of John chapters 1, 10, 14, 17 repeat several times in different ways what he is trying to convey. In chapter 20 Thomas' expression comes out of the blue and is then completely ignored, apart from those who would use it as a proof-text. I am quite happy to accept that situations and dialogues are set up and didn't necessarily happen exactly as they are related, but where do you think this one came from being preceded by "My Father and your Father, my God and your God" and succeeded by the confession that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?
From the perspective of [those] who share a static and exclusive definition of monotheism (either one is "God" or is not), the book is a mass of contradictions, where each party picks its prooftexts and tries to explain away the counter-prooftexts. It doesn't make any global sense. When you step out of this debate and open yourself to a dynamically inclusive understanding of monotheism it becomes very clear. And, should I add, beautiful.
Interesting thought although it sounds a bit heretical to me. Nevertheless, the Gospel of John is without doubt a thing of beauty and I sometimes think what an insult it is to his genius/inspiration to play ping-pong with the texts.
solafide : I've seen so many people to gymnastics with John 20:28 that it only leads me to believe my position even more because their arguments are so bad!
solafide, I have already said that personally I find Thomas statement quite puzzling and am surprised that you do not as well. I gave a bit of background to the whole of chapter 20 in my previous post and still wonder what point John was trying to make. For example, do you think he was suggesting that Jesus was the same God as the one whom Jesus had just referred to as "my God" to whom he was ascending? If so, then do you also think that Jesus is the Father whom Jesus linked with "my God" in the same sentence? And why do you think that he concluded the chapter by saying that Jesus is the Son of God after such a bombshell?
As you have provided your own answer to the question about a definite article (that it would depend on the context), I am not going to indulge in trading proof-texts. However, if you wish to share your thoughts on the whole of John 20 (and the questions I posed) I would be interested to hear.
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Chalam
I'd have to agree with the apostle Thomas when he said, "My Lord and My God!" - he didn't say "My Lord and a god!" and Jesus did not refute his statement by saying, "I am not God. If I gave you that impression then you were mistaken. I am just a angel." No. Jesus blessed Thomas for his discovery.
Great post sacolton as ever :)
Now another thing, Thomas was well aware of the first commandment
Exodus 20 (New International Version)
The Ten Commandments
1 And God spoke all these words:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God
Matthew 22:36-37 (New International Version)
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
Obviously Thomas had revelation of who was standing in front of Him, not "a God", an angel but God Almighty
John 14:8-9 (New International Version)
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
All the best,
Stephen