by androb31 236 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Reniaa,
I am not a trinitarian and I understand that John 1:1 referes to Lagos ( Jesus's) Nature, not Jesus being God the Father, but the "with" of John 1: 1 is not the same word, in 1: 1 it is "pros" which means towards, at, near by, with, regard to.
The issue with proskuneo isn't wheter its means obeisance, it's the lack of consisitency on the part of the WT in translating it, sometimes within the same Book/letter wriiten by the same author.
Reniaa,
Where in 1Thessalonians doe sit say the dead will rise with the voice of an archangel?
It says Christ will come with ( by procolmation if you will) the voice of an archangel and that after that event, the dead in Christ will raise, two seperate and different events.
If John though that jesus was an archangel, he would have said so in John 5;25, did he? No.
hi leolaia
why are you using fiction to support trinitarian doctrine on the bible? frog prince story has no bases in reality but then niether does trinity so I guess it is apt. but that aside lets Run with this analagy.
what is a prince? is it an identity or a qualative term or is it a positional one, he is the prince of a country!
So your limiting Jesus emptying himself to Just glory yet still retaining what? the position of God? but according to trinity 'he is God' nothing positional about it so your story is a false analagy nothing to do with the prince being a prince but instead he was a human who became a frog then back again. a bit like the word becoming flesh you think?
Reniaa
hi psacramento
the 'and' in thessalonians links all those events together they are not separate.
Also I think JWs are very consistent with worship/obeisance letting the context build it's meaning. Proskuneo like a number of greek words can change with context. And your own translations will use it's first meaning of bow/obeisance to a king/ruler when it isn't refering to Jesus to reflect their doctrinal stance.
Reniaa
Reniaa,
They are linked, they are just not the same or even consecutive, there is no indication of that, "and" connects them, it doesn't make them the same event or make them happen at the same time, that is speculation.
The NWT interprets the context of when to use worship and obeisance in a very interesting way to say the very least.
It seems that worship can be used with God even demons and kings, just not Jesus and it varies even within the writings of the same author ieven when he uses it the same way.
Don't forget, there are other words that can have been used to imply worship or obeisence, the author(s) choose one that typically referred to worship, that shoudl means something.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Notice this scripture's use of the instead of a. So, extra-canonical references to "4 chief archangels"and "7 archangels", if true also, would mean that Jesus, the Son of God is also the chief archangel. The use of the expression the trumpet call of God appears to indicate Jehovah's timing of matters.
John 5:25
I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now comewhen the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
Here the term the Son of God appears to indicate Jesus' sonly obedience to God, the Father (of all creation, including Jesus/ Michael). This is how I see it.
One thing, I have a problem with the time frames:has now come (John 5:25) appears to indicate a different time frame to what will come (1 Thessalonians 4:16) does.
Spike,
the "the" in 1Thessalonias is NOT there in the Greek, you can check the kingdom interlinear for that, it is AN Archangel in the Kingdom interlinear or jujst archangel, no "the".
nvm
Trevor,
I am looking at the Kingdom Interlienar right now, I also have a few other interlinears and none of them show "the".
Of course "the" can be added in accordance to the discretion of the translator.
PSacramento,
My tongue was firmly in my cheek. But of course, you are correct.
