Germany, Octogenerian enters KH with Machine Gun

by skeeter1 67 Replies latest jw friends

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  cognizant dissident

  Well, we can speculate about the poor, loving father, who only wants to see his daughter and he was driven to violence that was out of his character by the WTBTS, but in reality we don't know this is true.

  People who are reactively violent often have a history of acting out with violence and trying to use force to get their way whenever they are under stress. Then they blame the external stressful circumstance instead of their own ability to cope in socially acceptable (non-violent) ways.

  A few weeks ago, a poster on this board told me his JW daughter's teenage friend was chased around the house by her JW father with a hammer. She fled for her life to a sister's house and is afraid to return home. Now if she reports him and he gets shunned and he reacts violently and comes after her again, or the elders, did the society drive him to that behaviour due to their shunning policy?

  A woman in the congo I grew up in was murdered by her df'd husband who was being shunned. He held her and his two children hostage at gunpoint in a police standoff. The police talked him into letting the kids go then he shot his ex-wife and killed her. Just for the record, she divorced him and he was df'd for being abusive and violent. A decade later, I saw him interviewed in prison, for a tv documentary and he still blames her and the WTBTS for driving him to violence. According to the logic many are using on this thread, he would be justified in blaming the WTBTS.

  My point is this: there are many reasons that people are violent, mental illness being only one of them. We don't know any of the history on this person but many are automatically quick to blame the society for anything that goes wrong in their lives. If someone is violent and abusive and doesn't get df'd, it's automatically the society's fault. If someone is violent and gets df'd, then that's the society's fault too. There is very little balanced perspective in the blame game being played here.

  The society is psychologically manipulative and coercive and they use fear, guilt and shame to try and control people (as do most religions and the Bible). However, they have never advocated the use of physical force to control anyone (which is more than can be said for most other religions), so to lay the responsibility for the physical violence of everyone remotely associated with them at their doorstep is a huge stretch of credulity.

  Cog
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  llbh

  That The WTS is coercive in the way it operates is beyond doubt. That it treats df da people corrosively, is beyond question, to then say that that if nutcase walks in with a machine gun, that they are reaping they sow is to demonstrate the same mindset.

  Non of my family are or were jw's , yet my dad had a brother who i did not know existed until after he passed away, i lived less than three miles away from him all my lie! It is not only JW's who practice the pernicious act of shunning.

  We who have been in and left are wiser to leave the bile and vitriol behind, however difficult it is so to do. I speak as one who could be dfed anytime, ( they have tried and failed), and would see my gorgeous daughter who happens to be a JW very little.

  Regards David
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  oompa

  i am pretty sure i did this in a dream once.........was it dream or a wish?.......oompa
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  Mary

  My point is this: there are many reasons that people are violent, mental illness being only one of them. We don't know any of the history on this
  person but many are automatically quick to blame the society for anything that goes wrong in their lives. If someone is violent and abusive and doesn't get df'd, it's automatically the society's fault. If someone is violent and gets df'd, then that's the society's fault too. There is very little balanced perspective in the blame game being played here.

  For crissakes CD, no one is trying to justify this nutbars' actions. I'm simply stating a fact: The Society's policy on shunning can and does drive people to the brink. I've already stated that it's obvious this guy is off his rocker and that it's entirely possible that the shunning pushed him over the edge.

  You talk about there being "very little balanced perspective in the blame game being played here", yet you don't seem to be very balanced in your assessment yourself. You give several examples of people who have a history of violent behaviour as though every single person who suddenly snaps must possess the same traits. Guess what? Not everyone who commits a violent act has a violent history. Ever read The Burning Bed? Sometimes people just snap when they've been pushed too far.

  You say we don't know any of the history of this person, which is true---we don't. However, we do know the history of this religion, and it has pushed many people to the breaking point with their disfellowshipping policy. That is a fact. I merely suggested that maybe it was a combination of a guy who had some mental problems to begin with, being pushed to far and if any good can come of this, it's the exposure of this doctrine, which has destroyed tens of thousands of lives.

  This is not a 'hate' filled statement, it's a simple fact.
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  TD

  A technical fault prevented the weapon from firing.

  Probably a broken firing pin if it was actually an MP38 as pictured. Lucky thing for those JW's.
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  cognizant dissident

  On one hand I'm glad he didn't hurt anyone, on the other I wish he had.

  Wishing that the guy had hurt someone, just to prove a point about the WT shunning policy to outsiders, is just the type of unbalanced perspective that puts the poster in the same "nutjob" category as the guy with the guns.

  The only good thing that comes of situations like this is it exposes just how horrific the WTS's shunning policies are and how it literally tears families apart for absolutely no valid reason, other than someone doesn't believe their deranged doctrines anymore.

  If you believe anything "good" come of situations like someone trying to annihilate a bunch of innocent people in a church, then you're just as unbalanced as the previous poster. Outsiders don't look at situations like this and think, "Oh, those JW's should rethink their deranged shunning policies". They think, "What a violent, deranged, nutjob. The WT obviously knew what they were doing when they kicked him out the first time!

  I'm simply stating a fact: The Society's policy on shunning can and does drive people to the brink. I've already stated that it's obvious this guy is off his rocker and that it's entirely possible that the shunning pushed him over the edge.

  The only people that the society's policies push to the brink of insane violence are people who are already insane and violent or sane people who willingly make the choice to use violence because they believe the end justifies the means or people who do not accept personal responsibility for controlling themselves as in, "the devil made me do it!" (or in this case the WTBTS). Sometimes you can find all three conditions in the same person!

  You talk about there being "very little balanced perspective in the blame game being played here", yet you don't seem to be very balanced in your assessment yourself. You give several examples of people who have a history of violent behaviour as though every single person who suddenly snaps must possess the same traits. Guess what? Not everyone who commits a violent act has a violent history.

  Guess what? I wasn't suggesting that they do. I gave examples of people with a history of violence only to show that we cannot just assume that this man snapped because of the JW shunning policy and also, we cannot assume that other people who do were otherwise normal, peaceful people who just snapped one day because of the abusive stress put on them by the WT.

  My other example only demonstrates that personal choice is possible, even in the young and impressionable and most vulnerable members of the org. There are many, many people who choose not to follow the org's rules and still associate with their relatives, some openly and some secretly.

  I gave them because I know they are true (not speculation) as I have personal knowledge of them, and I provided them as a counterbalance to the views being presented. Providing possible alternative scenarios, is an attempt to try and reach a balanced assessment of the situation. Refusing to consider the possibilities that your speculations may, in fact, be untrue, isn't.

  Cog
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  purplesofa

  Who knows what will trip ones trigger.........Let's say this old man committed fornication in his ripe old age.

  He is sorry and repentant, however, the Elder body of three do not pick up on that. So he gets DF.

  Daughter is an active JW and adheres to the decision.

  Maybe he was DF many years ago and never went back and now in his old age, would like to

  make contact with his daughter as he knows he is dying and she won't have anything to do with him because he is DF.

  I don't know, I think people need to realize the consequences of their actions, how they really affect their loved ones.

  There seems to be some deep consequences when it comes to shunning for the ones who shun as well.

  purps
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  purplesofa

  Wonder what set this guy off? Just happened tonight.

  http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/08/04/pennsylvania.gym.shooting/index.html

  (CNN) -- A shooting at an LA Fitness gym outside Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, killed five people and wounded as many as 15 on Tuesday, a local official said.

  

  Authorities at the scene of a shooting at an LA Fitness gym.

  

  The shooter is among the fatalities, said Gary Vituccio, manager of Collier Township.

  Allegheny General Hospital reported receiving two wounded patients at its trauma center, Mercy Hospital had six and St. Clair had one. No other details were immediately available.

  Perry Calabro of nearby Bridgeville said he was between racquetball games at the gym when he suddenly heard screaming and multiple gunshots. He said he ran out and didn't see the gunman or others.

  Witnesses told CNN affiliate WTAE that a man unrecognized by the gym's staff shot people in a Latin dance class.

  A witness identified as Nicole told WTAE that about 30 women were in the class when "a middle-aged white male walked into the class. He had a big gym bag."

  Don't Miss

  • WTAE: Local coverage of shooting
  • iReport.com: Are you there? Send images

  "He looked out of place in a class full of women," according to the witness, who told WTAE the man put down the bag, turned off the lights and opened fire.
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  cognizant dissident

  Wonder what set this guy off? Just happened tonight.

  I'm guessing it must be the WTBTS's fault. He must have read one of their sexist articles on women dressing modestly and not dancing suggestively and just snapped and decided to take matters into his own hands. Damn sexy whores! I'll show them!
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  freedomisntfree

  cogdiss-that is my favorite post anyone has ever made on here i laughed so hard