Germany, Octogenerian enters KH with Machine Gun

by skeeter1 67 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  quietlyleaving

  maybe he did visit JWN

  edit: what cog said needed to be said
• 

  Scully

  I also wanted to add that when we ignore the role played by the WTS's teachings regarding shunning, and the contempt it encourages and fosters among JWs toward outsiders, focusing solely on the "personal responsibility" of the individuals involved - not that personal responsibility should be completely ignored either - we effectively become co-conspirators in the abusive psychological behaviour.

  Taking the attitude that shunning was benign and the old man just "snapped", when we really do not know all the facts of the matter, is just as wrong and damaging as the attitude that a woman who got two black eyes from her husband must have done something to deserve it. Society as a whole rejects the notion that it is ok for a man to slap his wife/girlfriend around - we accept that physical and/or psychological abuse is one of hallmarks of a dysfunctional relationship, so we need to extend those parameters to ALL kinds of interpersonal relationships, including those where such abuse is facilitated and condoned within the protective banners of Religious Freedom™.

  Edited to add:

  While "personal responsibility" and choice are definitely factors of note, the mitigating atmosphere within the JW culture cannot be entirely dismissed either. I believe that "corporate responsibility" is definitely part of the mix, and cases need to be built that solidly demonstrate, from a legal perspective, that the endorsement and promotion of shunning by the WTS and the fallout from shunning, is a huge factor in many violent crimes committed by ex-JWs, JWs, and people affected by the shunning behaviour of JWs.

  Manufacturers of vehicles are legally responsible when mechanical failure or poor workmanship results in accidents and personal damages. The WTS, as the manufacturers of this cruel and unusual form of psychological torture, cannot forever escape the fact that the contempt they hold, endorse and encourage toward outsiders is not at all "peaceful" - it is a violent act of emotional and psychological torture/terrorism. It sets JWs apart from the rest of society, the way a burka does to Muslim women, and it has exactly the same effect - segregation and fostering an us vs them mentality.
• 

  Rabbit

  COG:

  I was also shunned myself for three years when I was 18. It was devastating to me, but I at no time, felt any desire to kill anybody over it, least of all my old friends at the K.H. Of course, my uber dub, father joined in the shunning, as I knew he would, but my mother, who was reinstated by this time, didn't. Same daughter, different parents, different choice.

  * * *

  I'm devastated, too. I have no mother, because of the WT corp. blood policy. I have lost a marriage and children & grandchildren and other relatives over that same corporation's shunning policies.

  I've never felt a desire to harm anyone (but myself once). HOWEVER, could I say I was driven or transported to near that point? Yes ! The difference is...you and I, and thankfully the majority of us Ex-cult members have enough sanity left -- to stop ourselves from getting off that WTS guided bus that delivered us to the brink.

  What do WE do ? WE talk ! Thank Goodness ! But, what about the mentally exhausted, isolated & shunned (no matter due to religion/work/personal issues, etc.) ? STRESS -- can and does push people over the edge. Doesn't it ?

  What are we really arguing about ?
• 

  oldflame

  llbh, I understand exactly what CD was saying. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I did not appreciate her insinuating that I was promoting the idea that the guy who did this was justified in any way. No one is justified in walking into a Kingdom Hall (or anywhere else) with a machine gun and opening fire---or in this case, trying to open fire. I tried explaining that over and over again but CD apparently preferred to ignore that, and simply continued to assert that this guy must have had a violent history to pull a stunt like that and that the shunning policy played no role in it whatsoever.

  What I said was that the Society's shunning policy has and does, push people to the brink and that it should not be legal. Rather than recognize that disfellowshipping is nothing but a form of mental abuse, CD decided to label me as "unbalanced" when I said that if anything good could come of this, it's exposing the shunning policy that tears families apart. That was all.

  Mary,

  I could not agree with you more on this as we both know someone who because of being shunned had considered his way out was SUICIDE !

  Yes I totally believe that being shunned can push some people over the edge, not all people but it is a fact that it can indeed push some over the edge. This does not mean that it is an excuse by any means but there are some people who cannot cope with the idea of being closed off from their family and friends.

  There was a situation back in my past where I was accused of something horrible, something that I would of never considered doing and I was accused by some in my family who were witnesses and the reason for it was their way of back firing as I had told them that their religion was a cult and a lie. I had lost some very close friends because of this accusation but I endured until the real truth came to light and now the witnesses who accused me are now back tracking their asses for their wrongful accusations.

  Now this did not push me over the edge because I am stronger than that and it would take a lot more for me to commit the act of murder, I am also very strong in my beliefs and that controls my actions more than my anger, but like I said I have known some JW's who have went over the edge and yes it was because of the actions of the society. Some people are stronger than others and some can control their emotions better than others and not all people are the same. This still does not make an excuse for killing someone no matter what and the person who commits murder should no matter what their reason should be punished. The guy who murdered his wife should have gone through some mental evaluations and if it was found that he cracked because of his actions then maybe the punishment should be a little lighter.

  Really the whole thing is not for me to judge but for the rule of law and the rule of mental behaviour.
• 

  isaacaustin

  my view:

  I had read the post. I do not think Mary is out of line. I do agree that each person is responsible for their own actions, and while the WT can not be the cop-out excuse for this man they certainly do bear much of the blame. If someone walks up to you and spits in your face, pushes you to the ground and curses your family and begins to walk away and you pull out a gun and shoot them dead you are guilty of murder. But the victim definitely shares a portion of the blame here. The WT shares a huge part of the blame as well, in that they insert themselves in their members minds above all else and use this position to manipulate members to their own self-interests- destroying families and lives in the process. It is a baseless assertion to say that this 80 year old man had a violent past without actually knowing his past. He may have been a good person with a gentle personality who was pushed over the edge by having his family stolen from him. How many times do we hear of a spouse caught having an affair and the one cheated on snaps and kills the spouse or mistress? The killer may very well have been a non-violent person but different things make people snap. I think the extreme hypocrisy of the WT as well as major abuse of power makes them quite culpable here. I do not think Mary was wrong, I am in agreement with her views on this point.
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  reniaa

  Their is no excuse for this level of violence it is purely on the person doing it and in this case their mental health IMO. OR are we saying that in certain circumstances a non-violent action can rightly inspire violence from someone else?

  Also it is easier to redirect anger to something we feel justified in hating. It is assuming things as Cog says on the very little information given when he could easily have some undying mental illness which at 82 is quite a possible.

  I am very glad the witnesses acted quietly and sensibly avoiding what could have been quite horrific and in this case I hope the man gets the professional help he needs and lack of opportunity to ever attampt something like this again.

  Reniaa
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  isaacaustin

  I didn't say rightly inspire. I said contribute, and perhaps in a situation where it may not have otherwise occurred. While it likely would not have occurred in this situation were it not for the shunning, none of us can know if a different situation would have triggered the same actions. None of us know if he had a past history or simply snapped. I agree there is no excuse, the point is the WT may very well have contributed to this via thir shunning policy.
• 

  TD

  One thing that strikes me as interesting purely from a sociological standpoint (The armchair variety, I'm obviously not qualified to discuss this clinically) is the fact that two of the JW's overpowered this lunatic and held him for the police.

  The MP38/MP40 was an extremely dangerous weapon at close range and it would have been impossible for anyone to know in the heat of the moment whether the problem that prevented the weapon from firing was permanent (As in a broken firing pin tip) or temporary (As in a poorly lubricated bolt that was not completely closed.)

  I think anyone familiar with the Witness movement is aware that they gradually morphed from a fairly aggressive group that saw absolutely nothing wrong with the use of force in defense of property and person (Read the book 'Enemies' if you don't believe me...) into an almost abject pacifism under Knorr and Franz.

  Witnesses under Rutherford defended Kingdom Halls from angry mobs with deer rifles (cf. Judging Jehovah's Witnesses: Religious Freedom and the Dawn of the Rights Revolution) Witnesses under Franz were basically told that their options in a violent situation boiled down to either running or praying. (cf. The Watchtower July 15, 1983)

  The actions of the two Witnesses in this story who apprehended the perpetrator strike me as uncharacteristic. (This is not a criticism by any means.)