The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog 332 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  jonathan dough

  Reniaa wrote:

  but this is denying the sheer wait of scripture that never hint that any part of jesus son of God lived from the roman centurian at his death.

  Mark 15:39 (New International Version)

  39 And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and [a] saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son [b] of God!"

  REPLY: You have it backwards. The sheer, profound and undeniable Biblical facts support that Jesus was, and is, God. This is an unmistakeable Biblical conclusion. Truth. Go here for the proof: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20

  Accordingly, since Christians believe Jesus was, and is, God in the Trinitarian fashion, and because as I believe Habakkuk 1:12 says (according to which Bible used) that God never dies, then the God of the God-man Jesus did not die, and could not have died.

  Reniaa wrote: to revelation Revelation 2:8
  "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. REPLY: The problem is that you are not distinguishing the God from the Man. Sometimes it refers to God the Son, and sometimes to God the man. If Jesus died and came to life, it is God the man who speaks, naturally. "The practical implications of the union is that “Jesus sometimes spoke as man, sometimes as God; sometimes as Godman” (M. O’Carroll, Trinitas: A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity [Wilmington, Delaware, Michael Glazier, Inc., 1987], 186) (Trinitas)."

  Reniaa wrote:

  we are already having to ignore scriptures.

  John 1:14 (New American Standard Bible)

  14 And (A) the Word (B) became flesh, and (C) dwelt among us, and (D) we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of (E) grace and (F) truth.

  according to hypostatic doctrine this is an impossible scripture because the word is the god bit that doesn't die it just gets another fleshly will added to it.

  REPLY: Not at all. The human will is not added to the divine. Jesus was a divine person who assumed a human nature. The JW problem stems from their unbelief that Jesus was, and is, God. It all starts there. Once you understand this, and accept it, then all of the other pieces fall into place. He HAD to be God and he HAD to be human. That is what scripture teaches. I explain this on my website http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

  "Fifth, with the above in mind, and considering the many proofs that follow, John 1:14 was not meant to be read literally. It states, “And the Word became flesh,” but this does not mean that the Word made a complete transformation from a spirit angel to only flesh, which is a type of heretical modalism condemned by the church in the first centuries. Rather, the divine Person of Christ assumed a human nature. Jesus was a divine Person with a human nature. That is the only acceptable interpretation of John 1:14 because the divinity of Christ - that he was and is God - in an undeniable Biblical truth, and without His divinity redemption is not possible. It was necessary for Jesus to be a God-man for the sake of mankind’s salvation. Therefore He could not be “mere flesh” under any circumstances.

  Besides, since “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8 NWT) He cannot have been a preexistent angel who changed completely into mere flesh, and then reverted back to heaven as an angel. There is no such radical change in the Trinitarian Christian world where the Word was God the Son, remained God the Son during His sojourn, and continued as God the Son after His resurrection and ascension."

  JD II
• 

  jonathan dough

  Reniaa said:

  Nark the bible wasn't written for intellectuals it was written for the average person with average understanding to understand.

  REPLY:

  The Jehovah’s Witnesses insist that the Trinity is a work of Satan the Devil (Should You Believe, Chapter 10) and is invalid because it is a mystery (ibid., Chapter 1). And, as God is not a God of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33; ibid.) He would not permit such a confusing doctrine because it would prohibit the true worship of Him (ibid.)

  First, their reliance on 1 Corinthians 14:33 is misplaced because the “confusion” there was in reference to order during church meetings, those speaking out of turn, and those speaking in tongues. Secondly, the mere fact that the Trinity doctrine is mysterious in some ways, as is God Himself for that matter, doesn’t invalidate the doctrine. After all, Paul is one of the “stewards of the mysteries of God” (1 Corinthians 4:1). He speaks to Timothy of the “mystery of the faith” (1 Timothy 3:9), and the “mystery of our religion” (1 Timothy 3:16). Even Peter referred to some of Paul’s writings as difficult to understand (2 Peter 3:16) but that didn’t make Paul wrong.

  As difficult as the Trinity might appear to some, remember that certain aspects like the hypostatic union are taken on faith grounded in reason, but faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing, “For by grace you were saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast” (2 Ephesians 2:9). If faith has no role in the Christian world, belief in the resurrection of Christ would be nonexistent and salvation impossible to achieve.

  It is reasonable to have faith in the Trinity doctrine.

  This inability to “know God entirely” (presumptuous in itself) did not hinder the ancients like Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac and Moses from worshiping Him before the Mosaic Law was handed down. The triune nature of God wasn’t more fully explained until Christ arrived, so even the Old Testament Jews didn’t “know God” as Christ revealed Him, but that did not prevent the Israelites from worshiping God. And just because wrapping your mind around the doctrine of the Trinity might challenge you, that in itself doesn’t mean it is a false teaching, because it’s not.

  If you’re still convinced that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are God’s one and only true organization and that they disseminate the truth, please read the two accompanying papers entitled 1) Why the Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong in teaching that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C. and that Jesus’ Second Coming occurred in 1914, and 2) Why the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong in teaching that only 144,000 go to heaven to rule over humans on earth.

  Finally, whether the Jehovah’s Witnesses (those who devise their religious teachings) are genuinely confused or simply lack the ability to understand the Trinity doctrine, or whether something far more dark and sinister is at work here, is ultimately for the reader to determine.
  
  Jesus is Lord!

  JD II

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#trinity-home
• 

  booby

  Oh my, my Reniaa. don't we pick and choose. Why not address the other issues I raised?
• 

  booby

  Tenyearsafter: noticed your comment after my last post and I absolutely agree. I just find her/him/it to be like an itch you can't scratch.
• 

  reniaa

  hi johnathan

  circular reasoning! come on, you cannot say Jesus is God because God cannot die. Jesus clearly did die therefore he isn't God.

  The burden of proof is to show Jesus is The "one true God" in the first place which he himself denies and is attributed only to his Father specifically.

  1 Corinthians 8:6 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father,

  You can't accept "the word becomes flesh" as literal and exactly how the scripture puts it is because Jesus is God is a weak argument and again latches onto the assumption that Jesus is God.

  All the scriptures that clearly show Jesus isn't the One true Almighty God you have to ignore or deny.

  So really you must proof Jesus is the "One true God" before you can build all your hypostatic unions either Word/flesh or triune threesome.

  And I believe that the bible shows us the exact opposite.

  Reniaa
• 

  jonathan dough

  Reniaa wrote:

  hi booby

  ... but there was only one "God of gods" and jesus himself pointed that this was his father "You the only true God".

  REPLY: But that interpretation of John 17:3 ignores the mountain of Biblical evidence proving that Jesus was, and is, God. Accordingly, it was Jesus the man in the God-man equation that was uttering those words. Especially given 1 John 5:20 where Jesus is also referred to the True God. And as there can only be one True God, Jesus must be God.

  "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given to us an understanding that we might know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His son, Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and the life everlasting. (1 John 5:20 Green’s Literal Translation)"

  This ridiculous heretical JW notion that Jesus Christ was nothing more than a man completely contradicts the New Testament. They have yet to be able to reconcile the many contradictions it poses.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-7.html

  JD II
• 

  reniaa

  hi booby

  I am trying not to go off topic on this thread but trinity and hypostatic seem to interlinked one supporting the other, so to go down a usual sidetrack into defending an attack on gb is not appealing.

  Reniaa
• 

  jonathan dough

  Reniaa wrote:

  "I'm glad you allow that human oneness between a man and a woman cannot be used to substantiate the trinity one doctrine but now you have to show a biblical scripture that allows for that in itself."

  REPLY: Gladly. You might go back and read my post because I made the opposite point. It CAN be used to substantiate the Trinity in principle because the point was that we are dealing with spirit, not the physical. And it is in this abstract sense that two can be one. or 3 or 5. The 3 persons of the Trinity are not material, but spritual. In the same sense that the body of Christ is one body (Eph 4:4-6). Whether we are dealing with 3 or two or 144,000 is immaterial to make the point.

  JD II
• 

  reniaa

  hi jon

  1 john 5:20 is a play on translations and wording to try with smoke and mirrors make it appear like the 'one true God' refered to is Jesus when it is in fact his father.

  1 John 5:20 (New International Version)

  20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

  he who is true has a son Jesus and so it is "he who is the true" that is the true God that is refered to here not Jesus

  Reniaa
• 

  jonathan dough

  Reniaa wrote:

  The whole hypostatic point is to have two usable parts of Jesus. One that can be in heaven and going back again undying (Son of God) and another that can die and be resurrected (son the flesh creature) but once you show scripturally that it is the son of God that dies then the need for a fleshly Jesus is gone as well as the hypostatic union. but also trying to get divinity of Jesus to make him the One true God is also lost.

  Are we not really only debating here about divine?

  REPLY: Yes, that is exactly what we are talking about. And it is in light of this inescapable Biblical truth, that Jesus was, and is, God, that you should analyze 1 John 4:10 (New International Version) " This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for [a] our sins." Since the God-man of the hypostatic union cannot die, then 1 John 4:10 must be meant to refer to the creature Jesus who bled on the cross, the divine person who was sent and who assumed a human nature.I think you are reading too much into 1 John 4:10, reading it too literally.

  I don't understand why you are so confused over this. As Paul said, to be absent in the body is to be with the Lord. What is with the Lord? the Spirit, some call it a soul. This is an apt analogy with the hypostatic union - humans are material beings endowed with a spirit. It does not just vanish at death as the JWs falsly teach. Jesus the creature tendered his spirit to God and Stephen tendered his Spirit to Jesus.

  You should always begin your analysis with the fact that Jesus was, and is, God. The rest falls into place by logical necessity.

  JD II

  http://www.144000.110mb.com/