but Michael a.ka. the Word a.k.a. Jesus a.k.a. Jesus Christ are all the same ONE person; just as the Saul the Pharisee a.k.a. the Apostle Paul a.k.a. Paul (a part of the bride of Christ) a.k.a. Paul (as a heavenly king-priest, his future positon) are all the same OTHER person.
The Son in two persons
by Deputy Dog 332 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Chalam
Michael a.ka. the Word a.k.a. Jesus a.k.a. Jesus Christ are all the same ONE person;
Spike, maybe you should read the clear biblical evidence in this thread?
I need some good sriptures & reasoning to refute Jesus = Michael Archangel
All the best,
Stephen
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Spike Tassel
"clear Biblical evidence" is a value statement, not necessarily indicative of "objective fact".
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isaacaustin
Reniaa said:
Hi Isaac
when did he empty himself?
because whole thread is about Jesus being 100% flesh man at the same time as being 100% God no emptying there?
Reniaa
My reply: You can not seriously be asking me when Jesus emptied himself? Go read again, maybe your little mind will learn something.
I have nothing more to say on Mal 3:1....Deputy Dog said it so well.
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reniaa
hi quietly leaving
Why is their a problem with Jesus being dead for 3days? We do not think he is the One true God his father and so Jesus dying is something real and true. Not a pretend death that isn't really a death but a true sacrifice and trust in his father that he will resurrect him.
Luke 22:44 (New International Version)
44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground
Is this what someone would do if they knew only part of themselves was dying?
when it comes to changing nature are you saying this is impossible? it's what the bible says he did literally.
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.the bible doesn't say he joined with flesh but that he BECAME flesh.
Is believing he joined with another 'flesh creature Jesus', easier to believe? even though the bible never says this unlike the scripture I just used that does say he literally became flesh? Jesus God's son and the creature Jesus (as trinitarians call him) shared the same body and had two wills and consciousnesses inside the same head and mind, is that easier to believe? swapping to and fro from each other so each one gets a chance to speak?
Reniaa
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isaacaustin
only the body dies Reniaa, the soul continues.
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quietlyleaving
hi quietly leaving
Why is their a problem with Jesus being dead for 3days? We do not think he is the One true God his father and so Jesus dying is something real and true. Not a pretend death that isn't really a death but a true sacrifice and trust in his father that he will resurrect him.
Luke 22:44 (New International Version)
44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground
Is this what someone would do if they knew only part of themselves was dying?
when it comes to changing nature are you saying this is impossible? it's what the bible says he did literally.
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.the bible doesn't say he joined with flesh but that he BECAME flesh.
Is believing he joined with another 'flesh creature Jesus', easier to believe? even though the bible never says this unlike the scripture I just used that does say he literally became flesh? Jesus God's son and the creature Jesus (as trinitarians call him) shared the same body and had to wills and consciousnesses inside the same head and mind, is that easier to believe? swapping to and fro from each other so each one gets a chance to speak?
Reniaa
reniaa I don't expect you to swap at all and in fact if I were in your shoes I wouldn't either. But as far as I'm concerned what you are describing are three or even four different identities/states if you don't allow for something like a hypostatic union to make one person out of those different identities/states.
I don't think all trinitarians believe this below (and they will soon tell you)
Jesus God's son and the creature Jesus (as trinitarians call him) shared the same body and had to wills and consciousnesses inside the same head and mind, is that easier to believe? but personally I do find the above easier to believe, because, for example, it seems to me that Paul himself spoke of different wills struggling with one another in the same body. He even talked about different consciousnessess
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reniaa
hi quietly leaving
Come on! what Paul is talking about is the essence of free will. The conflict in one consciousness that we all have knowing that we have the choice to do right and wrong, the temptation to do wrong even knowing the consequenses is always there. Having the conflict of choices inside us is totally different from saying two separate consciousnesses and persons coming together.
It's that freewill and ability to reason that makes one complete consciousness in itself.
You now reaching the point were you are looking for scriptures that you can back up your thoughts and that means reading back into the scriptures what you want it to be. yet ignore it's literal explanations.
Reniaa
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isaacaustin
that is exactly what you have done Reniaa.
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PSacramento
Lets keep this simple, shall we?
Nowhere is it stated that Jesus WAS EVER and angel, much less a specific Angel, Michael.
There is ample opportunity for it, but it is never stated, ever, not by Jesus, not by Paul, Peter, John, James, ringo or any of the beatles ;)
It is just not there, period.
Hebrews does go out of its way to point out that Jesus was NOT an angel and far superiour to angels, as does the verse in John, Colossians, Phillipians, etc.
Michael was ONE of the chief Princes, ie: one of the archangels, this is clear in Daniel.
Jesus is called the Son of God, Son of man, the christ, our Lord, our saviour, the word and the water and the bread, he is never called an angel or referes to himself as such.
Period.