The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog 332 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  reniaa

  hi nark

  sorry just edited my post to put my point on these scriptures

  John 4:24
  God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

  1 Corinthians 15:45
  So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
  
  Hebrews 1:14
  Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

  Angels God and Jesus are all said to be spirit biblically. In fact there are many creatures said to exist in spirit form including evil spirits.

  Reniaa
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  Narkissos

  Of course it's not THE ("orthodox") Incarnation and hypostatic union. But you still need basically the same trick for an archangel becoming a man (and keeping his identity through the "metamorphosis") as for "God the Son" becoming a man

  They can't even do that right. Which is my point in this thread.

  I see your point DD, but mine is that they could easily do that right if they wished, without changing their basic doctrine. It would be sufficient to them to explicit that the logos archangel remained himself while emptying himself (kenosis) of his spirit nature (I mean, "stuff"). They do believe that, but keep it implicit.
• 

  Narkissos

  No problem reniaa, I noticed your edits but I don't think they change anything to the discussion.

  As I told you on another thread, the WT frequently implies that the earthly Jesus (at least from baptism onward) remembered his "pre-human existence". And that of course the resurrected Jesus is similarly credited with both his pre-human and human record. Think of the personal continuity this implies throughout the story and you will be close to the thought of "hypostatic union" (which you may of course call as you like).

  And please don't tell me again that Jesus is not God; that's not the issue here.
• 

  cantleave

  Stephen. I watched the video, it didn't convince me. The guy sounded as culty as the witnesses. Talking of demons, saying not believing will result in death and quoting scriptures just makes me squirm. I used to give a Public Talk "Is the Trinity a Scriptural Doctrine" and I was as convincing as the guy in the vid.
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  booby

  Reniaa: How do you come off on one level sounding (to me anyway) as having a modicum of intelligence and yet on another level as being dumb as a wall? Let's make it simple you say, there is this spirit stuff and this flesh stuff. Yup, real simple. Anyway, where in the start of this thread do you get the thought that, or problem is that Jesus is the almighty God. You see the word Trinity and go bezerk in your head. I think this thread goes to the point that the Witnesses have their own level of complexity of Jesus and God. But all you saw was the word trinity. I think too that your last post shows another problem you have, an "I" problem.
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  booby

  Oops. Rennia is fast. The "I" problem is second to last post.
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  isaacaustin

  Excellent job Reniaa. You have convinced me that the trinity is not true and that Jesus is indeed Michael the archangel. You so deftly and logically tackled the question of what came down from heaven. You kept verses in context so well and used such consistent logic on doctrine. Like a swine you got down and dirty with the scriptures. I am going back to the org! Lol
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  Yizuman

  I just don't understand why it's so difficult to understand for God to be able to do anything. He has no limitations.

  Why is it difficult for God to be The Father while at the same time, come down to this world in the flesh to be The Son while at the same time hover over all of the earth as The Holy Spirit?

  Can God engage a million conversation with a million people with a million different topics all at the same time?

  Seems to me that people think God is limited.

  The laws of physics do not apply to God because He's not bound by anything nor is He bound by the law of time. Nor is He bound by any law for that matter.

  It's simple logic really.

  Yiz
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  reniaa

  Hi nark

  it's the bible that shows Jesus got knowledge at baptism so where does that leave your hypostatic union? hypostatic union is a construct and yes I am not so fully cognicent of all of the various word games constructed to explain speculations beyond the bible. but then I want people to show me scriptually their points but if the scriptures are deliberately vague then we shouldn't try and put our own speculations on them.

  Reniaa
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Nark

  I see your point DD, but mine is that they could easily do that right if they wished, without changing their basic doctrine. It would be sufficient to them to explicit that the logos archangel remained himself while emptying himself (kenosis) of his spirit nature (I mean, "stuff"). They do believe that, but keep it implicit.

  Another example of where they shoot themselves in the foot, is how they explain that, Jesus as a child has no idea who he really is or that Micheal even existed.