hi deputy dog
just to clarify what any witness or ex-witness could tell you, is that all Jws think is michael is just a name change nothing else.
Reniaa
The Son in two persons
by Deputy Dog 332 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jonathan dough
Reniaa wrote:
hypostatic points
1) where in the bible does it say Jesus has two different wills?
REPLY: By logical deduction if you understand the God-man nature of Christ. Jesus the creature who was not the Almighty was a man and men, like you or I, have a human will. That is the first will. The God of the God-man which is the hypostatic union also has a will, ie. "let your will be done." That is the second will. Man's will and God's will.
2) it looks like they are trying to say Jesus is a duointy in himself so we have 3 in one trinity and 2 in one Jesus. and again not biblical.
REPLY: You are mixing apples and oranges and confusing immanent and economic trinity. The 3 refers to immanent Trinity, before creation, God in himself. There is no "2 in one" in Jesus as you mistakenly believe if I understand you correctly. Rather, it is God the Son and Jesus the creature who was/is not God. He is not split into 2 as you mistakenly believe; He is a divine person who assumed a human nature. God the Son overlaps with the hypostatic Christ in the sense that it is this God the Son who is the God of the Jesus God-man. I'll paste a few paragraphs below which explains immanent versus economic trinity.
3) Where in the bible does it say we can be two natures at the same time?
REPLY: First, the Bible does not say that "we" (you or I) have two natures. I don't know where you came up with that. We're dealing with Christ, and He can have two natures for the same reasons he has two wills as explained in #1 above. God has a nature and Jesus the creature who is not the Almighty has a nature. This equals two natures. It follows logically. Out of curiosity, did you ever go to university? Have any degrees? If so, what kind?
4) the bible says he emptied himself but if he still remained fully man and fully god what did he empty?
REPLY: Your statement "if he still remained fully man" doesn't make any sense. Remained from what? Perhaps you could rephrase this for us? When God the Son emptied himself he assumed a "veiled status" yet continued as fully God.
Here is a brief explanation on the difference between immanent and economic trinity from http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#2
2) Immanent Trinity versus economic Trinity; God in Himself and God for us. [Top]
At the outset it is crucial to understand two key concepts. You must distinguish between immanent Trinity (theological Trinity) and economic trinity, and understand how they relate to each other. This is not difficult. The Jehovah's Witnesses fail to separate them and erroneously combine the two concepts. This error lies at the root of the Jehovah's Witnesses’ harsh attacks on the Trinity and allows them to get away with distorting Trinitarian teaching. It is the means by which they are able to convince many people, who otherwise would know better, that the Trinity is utterly illogical and false when it is true and reasonable, even if certain aspects are grounded upon a measure of faith.
Immanent (theological) Trinitarianism, refers to the essence of God the Almighty, his hypostatic three-fold nature and his absolute and perfect being, before creation. It deals with the “infinite, blessed communion of the divine Persons among themselves, without reference to creation,” (B. Brobrinskoy, The Mystery of the Trinity [New York, St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1999], 2, 3) (Mystery). It is the triune God as he is in himself (J. Moltmann, The Trinity and the Kingdom of God [Munich, Germany, SCM Press, Ltd., 1981], 151) (Trinity and the Kingdom).
This should not be confused with economic Trinitarianism (God for us), the concerted activity of the three Persons in creation as they “maintain and restore the created world to a state of well-being and communion with God” (ibid., 2). “Economic” refers to “divine management of earthly affairs” (The Encyclopedia of Religion [New York, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1987], 54) (Encyclopedia of Religion). “It is oriented to the concrete history of creation and redemption: God initiates a covenant with Israel, God speaks through the prophets, God takes on flesh in Christ, God dwells within as Spirit” (ibid., 54). It is also called revelatory Trinity because the triune God reveals himself through his dispensation of salvation (Trinity and the Kingdom, 151).
Accordingly, much Trinitarian theological discussions about the “One God in three Persons” deals with immanent Trinity, not economic Trinity. The economic aspect of the Trinity includes the created humanity of Jesus, who was not God (The New Catholic Encyclopedia [Washington D.C., The Catholic University of America, 1967], 943) (Catholic Encyclopedia) and not part of the immanent Trinity. But that is precisely where the Jehovah's Witnesses mistakenly inject him resulting in a great deal of unnecessary confusion.
They argue, to take one illustration, that Jesus could not be God yet be with God; and he could not be the Father whom he prayed to (Should You Believe in the Trinity? [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1989; http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm], Chapter 7) (Should You Believe). But this is a classic example of the Jehovah’s Witnesses mixing apples and oranges. The man of the God-man Jesus, the created humanity who was not God (Catholic Encyclopedia, 943), could rightfully pray to God the Father and did regard himself as inferior; this He performed in the context of economic Trinity.
The idea that the preexistent Word (God the Son) was with God stems from John 1:1:
In the beginning was the Word,
And the Word was with God,
And the Word was God.Even though John 1:1 speaks in the context of pre-creation immanent Trinity, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have swapped out God the Son, the preexistent Word, with the created humanity of Jesus. This is not accurate Bible teaching nor does it properly reflect the doctrine of the Trinity. John 1:1 does not claim to say that the created humanity of Jesus was God or was with God in the beginning.
If you keep this distinction in mind you will be in a much better position to navigate the Jehovah's Witnesses’ maze of misleading tactics and come to a better understanding of what the Trinity doctrine actually means.
JD II
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jonathan dough
Reniaa wrote:
It lost me when they started on john 1:1 and said this means he 'must be 3 in a different sense' when there is no mention of the holy spirit in john 1:1 that is just wishful thinking put onto john 1:1 they must miss 1 john 5:7 additions.
REPLY:
No one is putting the HS into John 1:1. It is dealing with a principle that can be extended to the HS. It is the question of "otherness" and the same logic applies to the HS. That is all that means.
Tertullian (d. 230 A.D.) displayed a good sense of the manner in which God is one, and the way in which he is at the same time three:
God is indeed three: in grade or order, in appearance or aspect, but with a realist connotation, and in manifestation; but in substance (granting an indecisiveness in Tertullian’s use of the term), in power, God is perfectly one. (ibid., 297)
The Word stands forth and is other than the Father though still within the Godhead in the manner suggested by human reflection, as internal discourse is in some sense another, a second in addition to oneself, though yet within oneself. (ibid., 296)JD II
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jonathan dough
Reniaa wrote:
why did you just make me read all that hypostatic bunf its worse than trinity? :( when Jesus was praying to himself as God did he have an argument with his other-self God inside himself?
REPLY: Don't be silly. Jesus was not praying to himself. Where do you peope come up with this stuff? He was praying to God the Father, the first person of the Holy Trinity. And the Trinity doctrine does not teach that Jesus the creature was the Almighty Father. You appear to be having a difficult time with this simple concept. Keep trying.
JD II
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Leolaia
Don't be silly. Jesus was not praying to himself. Where do you peope come up with this stuff?
It seems as if she is still thinking of the trinity in modalist terms, despite having been corrected many times on this. It is understandable however since the Society regularly makes this error.
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ldrnomo
Does it really matter how we view God, as Christians? Isn't believing in Jesus the path to salvation? So, as long a Christian has a belief in Jesus as their savior does God really care how many we believe he is. I know if I was God I wouldn't give a $hlt what number people put on me. Why would I even care, I'm just going to look on and watch all my pee on little creations having ongoing debates about how many I might be. That's funny! Thanks for the entertainment folks
LD
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jonathan dough
LD wrote:
Does it really matter how we view God, as Christians?
REPLY: I think it does matter. Salvation is to know God, and if Jesus was and is God, and JWs say he was only a man and nothing more, I think God would be offended and not pleased. How does that line in John go? Jesus said "If you do not believe that I AM you will die in your sins?" Or John 17:3, "And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."
Knowing God, to the extent that we can, matters.
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ldrnomo
So then, why does he make it so hard to get to know him? If I was God I would make sure everybody had complete and CLEAR information on who I was.
It sounds as though he's made it a game and the losers will die. With the justice that God gave me I can't imagine caring that my creation doesn't quite know me the way I want them to. Especially because the information I provided wasn't that clear of the subject which explains the ongoing debate about the issue.
LD
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glenster
What I have on it is on pp.6b to 10 at the next link.
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/ -
Chalam
LD Does it really matter how we view God, as Christians? Isn't believing in Jesus the path to salvation?
I agree with this. You gotta to get to know Jesus before you can come to the Father.
John 6:40 (New International Version)
40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 3:14-15 (New International Version)
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
1 John 5:12 (New International Version)
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
John 3:36 (New International Version)
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
John 5:24 (New International Version)
24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 14:6 (New International Version)
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 6:46-48 (New International Version)
46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life.
Simple!
All the best, Stephen