by wannabe 62 Replies latest watchtower bible
Educate yourself, first, because you're putting your foot in your mouth. Read this for a detailed explanation.
http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html
How about showing me a detailed explanation from the Bible. My days of receiving doctrines from imperfect men rather than the Bible are over. Apparently you learned nothing from your experience as a JW.
Blue Grass:
I was raised as a Protestant and believed in the trinity for the first 19 years of my life and no matter how much Catholics/Protestants don't like to admit it they most certainly teach there are 3 Gods. They say Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God and you know it.
LeavingWT I know exactly what the definition of the trinity doctrine is as I use to believe in it and defend it myself. The fact that in order to explain the definition you have to go to a source outside the Bible to only proves my point.
Plenty of doctrines believed by many mainstream churches must be explained by going outside of Scripture. This is very common. I'm interested in WHAT the doctrine is. I'm not interested in whether or not it's supported in Scripture. All "doctrine" is based upon a unique interpretation of Scripture. Sola Scriptura is actually a minority position among all professed Christians alive today.
Please point me to a link on a mainstream Christian website where they proclaim belief in "3 Gods".
-LWT
Could someone please post a Cliff's Notes version for those of us who don't have time to chase down links or listen to podcasts?
If the Trinity isn't 3-in-1 God, then what is it? And why name it "Trinity?" These shouldn't be complicated questions.
This makes no sense. I'm sure you know Jesus prayed to the Father on multiple occasions while on earth. So basically what you're saying is that there was a single God inside Jesus and the father at the same time while they were talking to each other?
Jesus and the Father are the same God, but different Persons. Yes they can communicate with each other. they exist in a perfect bond of Love. I've heard it said before that the Father is the Lover, the Son is the Beloved, and the Holy Spirit is a bond of Love so strong that it assumes it's own personality. Also, while on earth, Jesus had two natures, both Man and God. Some of the things he did were because he was a man. He lived as a human and did many things in a human way as a manner of instruction. He prayed to the Father so that we would learn to pray. He even taught us a model prayer.
And also that when Stephen saw Jesus standing next to the Father that neither the Father nor the Son was God (because that would mean there were two Gods) but one God divided himself between the two of them? I was raised as a Protestant and believed in the trinity for the first 19 years of my life and no matter how much Catholics/Protestants don't like to admit it they most certainly teach there are 3 Gods. They say Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God and you know it.
A divine vision like Stephen's is something that is given as a representation of the reality. Do you think the Father or the Son are actual literal men sitting on thrones? These are all representations given in human terms to help us understand God. That's why God became a human being, to teach is about Himself in a way we could relate to. In his complete form, God surpasses any human understanding, but we have an "interface" so to speak, through the god-man Jesus.
P.S I find it ironic that the ones defending the trinity have to rely on books and articles written by imperfect men to support there teaching. I wonder why. Is it because it is impossible to explain the trinity using only the Bible and not the aid of articles written by men? And I thought you guys already learned that lesson from the time you spent as JWs. Oh well, I guess some people just continue to make the same mistakes
Some people mistakenly engage in what I call Bible-olatry. They make a book God. The Bible, while holy, itself was written by imperfect men. I'd like to add, also, that the Bible was never intended to be the "whole story." It is only a collection of books written to people that already knew the Christian message. The Bible isn't the Word of God. The Bible is a collection of books about God. These books are useful for our instruction and edification, like Paul wrote. We have a Word of God, and it isn't a book. It is the living Christ. That's the true Word, not the Bible. The church that Christ founded and infused with the holy spirit is the body of Christ, even if scattered around the Earth and existing in a partial state of separation like it is today. We aren't a religion of a mute book, but a religion of the Living Word.
BTS
Jesus and the Father are the same God, but different Persons.
I don't understand how this could be. Is it like if Barak Obama was triplets and they were all President instead of just one of him?
Wannabe, the Trinty acknowledges one God. The three persons OPERATE as one God, in perfect harmony. There are distinctions in roles, however the OPERATION is in perfect harmony, or unity. Please do not confuse with modalism, which asserts the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be the same person. This is not the Trinity.
The three persons OPERATE as one God, in perfect harmony.
I'll ask again how can this be? What does that make "God?" if not three people? And if not three people, how not?
I've never seen Trinity explained in any sensible way by either believer or nonbeliever. Seems like doubletalk (or tripletalk, more accurately).
If the three persons did not operate in perfect harmony (the Father being the source of all decisions and authority, the Son being the perfect agent in carrying out those decisions, the Holy Spirit being the Helper) then the three persons would be operate as 3 gods. There is one true god, who is manifest in 3 persons. Those three persons operation is as one god due to their perfect unity.
I acknowledge there are other views and respect that it seems as nonsensical or doubletalk, people's mileage varies. All is well.
I think equally nonsensical would be what you were left with if you deny Jesus being God when the NT shows him doing things only God can do, or things fulfilled in Jesus that the OT says are fulfilled in Jehovah. Jehovah is simply the name of the Divine Being...revealed to us in the person of Jesus. Again, no disrespect intended toward you if you believe differently or do not see it the same way.
The Bible is a very interpretive book. I can see how trinitarians see certain scripture and go that way and then non-trinitarians go the other way. So I have decided for me it is a non-issue. To me, neither group has the full concept of God, though the arguers claim otherwise. So I have pretty much decided for me, what is most important is the "fruitage of the spirit."
To me, if the arguers boast they know God so much, which is sometimes humorous to me, as to condemn the others, then they have already lost their argument and only show arrogance in judging the others. Dealing with my day-to-day reality issues and how those things fit in with "love, joy, peace, etc." is my concern.
I don't understand how this could be. Is it like if Barak Obama was triplets and they were all President instead of just one of him?
Despite what some people have thought of him, Obama is a human, not God. Read my quote above by C. S. Lewis in post 14325. He gives a very good explanation by analogy. God exists at a different level from our own. Flatlanders are incapable of understanding the 3rd dimension. To them, an apparition of a 3D entity is a spiritual experience. When Sphere appears in their dimension, it is a perfect, mystical apparition. They can't see all of Sphere, only the 2 dimensional section of Sphere that is crossing the plane they exist in. Read the book sometime, it's short, and it's a classic. Within the Christian context, there are things regarding God that we can't completely grasp, but are nonetheless true. Can you truly grasp eternity? Omniscience? I can't. The problem with groups like the JWs is that they tried to completely rationalize God. The God idea isn't contrary to reason, but he is not completely explainable by human reason either. Even in Scripture, man and woman become one flesh through marriage. You and your wife (if you have one) aren't the same flesh, but you do become one flesh in your children. Marriage is the (imperfect) human analog to the Trinity.
BTS
