ONE! NO EQUAL!

by wannabe 62 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  BurnTheShips

  I have no idea where you got the idea of the Bible not being the word of God from or that it's a "mute book".

  Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough, BlueGrass. You only posted part of my comment, it also said the following:

  These books are useful for our instruction and edification, like Paul wrote.

  I made that statement referencing the text at 2 Timothy 3:16 that you cited. What I mean by "mute book" is that the Bible doesn't speak for itself. What book speaks for itself? It is a static document, it only means what we interpret it to mean by reading it.

  The Christian faith is not a religion of the book. Christianity is the religion of the Word of God, a word which is not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living. If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, open our minds to understand the Scriptures.

  Regarding Hebrews 4:12, I've often wondered what is really meant by that word of God being "alive and active". There are two possible interpretations to that text that come to my mind. The frequent one is that it references Scripture, and the other one that I have thought about is that it speaks of the Logos, the Word spoken of in John 1:1. In Jesus we definitely have a living, active word that can penetrate the soul.

  Also I would like to know what is this church today that's infused with so much holy spirit that we should listen to them rather than the Bible.(Didn't Fred Franz say something like that before)

  Jesus said "wherever there are two or more gathered in my name there I will be also." Additionally, I never meant that a source should be listened to as having more authority than the Bible. Interpretations of the Bible, however, vary wildly. I am sure you know this as well as I do.

  I am grateful to Franz, his writings helped me leave. I think he is sincere and thoughtful. I think it took real courage and conviction to try to change things in the Watchtower, and he paid a high price for it. That said, I don't necessarily see everything the same way he does, and I am sure he would agree that I have freedom of conscience.

  BTS
• 

  BurnTheShips

  ACtually, they agree on the core of the matter:

  One God comprised of 3 persons - Father, Son and HS.

  No confusion there.

  What PSAC said. We've all used different human analogies to try to explain the Trinity. But ultimately, it is a faith matter. We just try to make it more accessible to our own intellects and easier to try to explain to others by using analogies.

  I had what I feel was a personal revelation about the Trinity in 2004 when I was in the JWs. I still remember the moment, I was alone, sitting on a huge rock in the desert (Arches National Park) and looking into a deep ravine, a layered rock face, with a hot sun and a cool breeze blowing over me like a spirit. Something happened, I felt that I wasn't alone. The thought spontaneously came to me that this idea was true, and I looked up and saw the profile of a rock form like three pillars in the distance that strengthened the feeling about this idea of a tri-unity. The pillars looked like robed men. Was it a coincidence, or was it a message? Yet I still rejected that deep moment of intuition within myself because I couldn't sort it out intellectually. I pushed it away....but I kept returning to it and thinking about it.

  One evening in 2006 on board a small plane on a very turbulent flight home, I read the C.S. Lewis passage I cited above and it all clicked. I "got it", intellectually speaking. I could reconcile the idea between my spiritual and rational aspects. It was all I could do to hold back my emotions. I walked off that plane like I was walking in the clouds. Years of ingrained JW thinking slowly started peeling away. My mind was open to new ideas. Later that year, I finally resolved to leave the JWs for good.

  Mathematicians are able to mathematically describe higher dimensions, but I can't wrap my brain around it. Physicists can describe how electrons and photons are both particles and waves at the same time, or how quantum effects can make objects be in two places at the same time, but since it isn't a normal part of my everyday reality, I can't wrap my brain around it either. My cognition isn't adapted to these realities. However, in both cases, I accept the existence of these phenomena.

  You can agree or disagree with me, it's OK. Unlike mathematical constructs, or quantum phenomena, you can't "prove" God in that way. I spent years on Yahoo boards arguing the JW case. But I've accepted the Trinity now.

  BTS
• 

  PSacramento

  BTS makes a very valid point.

  There are many things in the scientific world that we can't really put into ords or grasp all the aspects of, but we believe.

  I am sure some scientists can put them into simple terms, but not lay people.

  The very nature of God is something that we as human may never fully understand and that's ok because in his Son we have the personification of God in a way we CAN understand.
• 

  leavingwt

  I'm only around 10 minutes in to the RealAudio files leavingwt. Nothing new to report yet but I'll keep the thread posted.

  Keep going, man! Keep going!
• 

  Blue Grass

  BurnTheShips says " I am grateful to Franz, his writings helped me leave. I think he is sincere and thoughtful. I think it took real courage and conviction to try to change things in the Watchtower, and he paid a high price for it. That said, I don't necessarily see everything the same way he does, and I am sure he would agree that I have freedom of conscience."

  It sounds like you are confusing Fred Franz with Ray Franz.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Oops!!
• 

  hamsterbait

  I think that some of the anti trinity people here are incredibly arrogant.

  They claim to believe in an omnipotent god who has always existed even outside of time (do they really understand THAT) and a lot of the other twisty twirly mind-game magic of their own beliefs.

  There are some things we cant explain completely or understand. It doesnt make them into lies.

  Its just another thing little mammal brains cannot grasp.

  The trinity is NOT a "three headed God" as mockingly defined by the witchtower.

  Isnt it faith in Christ that saves us, not parroting the doctrines of the particular denomination that appeals to us?

  As Queen Elizabeth I of England said about the religious wars of her time: "There is but ONE Lord Jesus."

  HB
• 

  leavingwt

  I find it amusing that the 3 individuals(jonathan dough,isaacaustin, and BurhTheShips) who are zealously defending this ridiculous doctrine don't even agree with each other on the definition of the doctrine.

  Most Christians are amused by those who reject the Trinity. So, as far as amusement goes, this is a win-win.

  Most Christian faiths accept the Trinity. The percentages aren't even close.

  So, if the issue is a litmus test for "true" religion, most of the Christians alive today are going to Hell.
• 

  donuthole

  speaking of faith ...

  ... it is an act of faith to believe that this absolutely, undisputable, fundamental doctrine of true Christianity took theologians some four centuries to develop in full and the secular power of the Roman empire to affirm.
• 

  Razziel

  Here's my human analogy thought experiment...

  If humans are created in God's image... What would happen to the human conscious if it was isolated by itself for an indeterminate period of time? It might fragment itself in an attempt to keep its sanity in an infinity of loneliness. Each fragment might become a distinct personality based on specific traits from the original singular personality.

  In the case of a human being, seperate personalities would just be different manifestations of the same human. But in the case of a supreme being who wields the power of creation? Each personality could become a distinct individual while sharing the same divine essense.

  Back to reality...

  Personally, I've seen good arguments both for and against the trinity. Regardless of how you look at it, there is no black and white answer in the Bible. I see the trinity doctrine just like a scientific hypothesis. It's an attempt to harmonize multiple scriptures that state/infer both a singular God and three entities of divine origin into one doctrine that can explain all of the these scriptures satisfactorily (which is itself a source of dispute).