by ForbiddenFruit 159 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Thinking about it last night, I've come to the conclusion that Jehovah wanted us to understand the sacrifice HE would be making- using Abraham as an example.
And FACE it, Abraham, while being distressed, was His FRIEND- and knew there was a VERY good reason he was being asked to do this...he had FAITH, far more than many of US!
I think that sometimes the Witnesses forget that for believers, Christ did not DIE, at least not to anything but to a human form. That was all that was sacrificed and metaphysically, the body is not so much, although I'm terribly fond of mine at times. *G*
That also goes back to obedience being the sacrifice, the "holy smoke" as I like to call it. Does God need incense or blood or dead sheep parts or even the blood of the body of his Son? No, not literally. But humans need evidence, being as we are physical, that we have offered something up to God.
You know, if you take the time to talk to a Jew, they will take time out of their very Jewish day to help you understand what the difference between various words mean.
I did that long ago, and am glad I did. I found out an "abomination" isn't a really big deal, can be righted with a bath, or a small ritual. It's nothing to die over. Which is why I laugh at people who throw Leviticus 18 at me now, including the Witnesses. So what, an "abomination"? Take a bath, remain unclean until the next sunset, whatever, if you're a Jew.
Abomination is a piss poor translation of the word there, that's why. Ritual uncleaness might be better. Some words, they don't translate well into other languages. Hebrew and English, not a lot in common, linguistically.
So, you listen to those who left the True God, and who Christ condemned. How wise. heh
So, the Bible does not use churchese; when it says someone died- they did. NO LONGER alive. No longer living. THUS the beauty of a future day when the dead will be.....you GUESSED it- resurrected.
NOT changing forms again....
Nice to come home to the conversation. Some interesting thoughts here.
Looking over the past posts it is evident that none of Abraham's test conforms to a religious organization's check list: True faith is demonstrated by an ignorant old listener and his son who had no doctrinal training; delightful union appears in the shared solitude of faith; Abraham's stunning faith was in giving the son that he didn't kill became Jehovah showing how much He loved the worldwhen He gave His only begotten son. And not inconsequentially, there is this paradox in understanding what we read in the scriptures: being too literal in translating is as big a problem as being dismissive of critical differences between Hebrew language/thought and English language/thought. That point is absolutely why olah and zebach should be carefully guarded from casual interchange with "sacrifice".
Following the thread of the language connection was important to me a long time ago too. I found that ee often use the English word "sacrifice" in a way that the Hebrew does not. We use it in a way that the Greek does not. The words were so specific to the occasion of ritual slaughter that we must read the accounts concerning Jehovah and Abraham--and Jephthah with special care. Even when Jesus is referred to as being a sacrifice it is never suggested that he is slaughtered at the hand of his father any more than Job is injured by Jehovah. Both are given over to the heavy hand of the world and the evil one. Isaac and any of us who would follow his and Jesus' example must know that obedience unto death is the extent of the trust we must have even if we cannot see a ram in the thicket.
I actually find it dignifying to the poor that they (we?) each have a life to give. Anfd so Romans 12:1 has it --And worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings, by offering your living bodies as a holy sacrifice, truly pleasing to God.
Mindmelda and MadJ, My slow process of response missed/skipped MadJ's last comment. But when I finally entered my last remark on this day's post I see that we are all talking about what death can mean in various situations.
Your comment, mindmelda, which says that Jesus didn't die completely (do I understand you?) because he lived again in heaven. That is handy for us and not a critical loss for Jesus. But there was a reason that he sweat blood in the Garden.
Your comment about the personal fondness you have for you own body is not misplaced. Certainly Jesus must have enjoyed the interface of his own body with the surrounding environment. He apparently knew better than any of us how that world was beautifully conceived for human existence. There is something about living that makes dying seem outrageous to most of us when we are not suffering a long and terrible old age or death. Suffering is not good. It is said that Jesus sweat as he did not for personal fear but for spiritual anguish.He dreaded the reproach that his father would suffer as he, God's son, was charged with blasphemy. There seemed no obvious good that would result from such an end to his life.
MadJ , Careful, please to criticize talking to 'those who left the true God". You are talking to 'those who left the true God' after all. What difference is there in you and mindmelda in this? For the purpose of searching for what is true, for the good of knowing and learning from others and thus benefiting ourself and another--we talk. Don't we?
Even if one does not fear death because of faith in the resurrection, no one wants to squander the moment of life we have. We don't want to miss life's purpose.
We all worry that we might spend our life on a worthless venture an empty promise or a mistaken idea. For Abraham and Isaac to go through what they did is truly wonderful.
I was not allowe to speak to other Witnesses about this.
"Not ALLOWED"? Who forbid you?
Hello MadJ, Just saw your last post. I appreciate your remarks. As to who forbid me--- initially it was my local elders starting at March of 2009. Please let me explain myself before you suppose that I had stirred up any congregational shism or issues in this completely private study of Genesis 22--because I took care not to stumble anyone. I had never looked on any "apostate" web sights or associated with any group who had an ax to grind with the Society.As long ago as 2005 I took the matter up with our then C.O. with no outcome other than a very civil and searching discussion after which he just asked me what I would do. I said that I supposed I would eventually write the Society.
As time past I found it impossible to say nothing during Watchtower Studies and Book Studies since I knew the Bible's words were so much more generous to Jehovah than the renderings in our literature. But still I didn't make an issue of it. Finally there came a day when I could no longer intolerate being a witness of the true God who kept her mouth shut (Rather how you feel MadJ?) So I wrote the local elders that I was reporting a problem person in the congregation--myself! I gave a brief outline of the facts as I knew them and told them that the way Abraham's test is presented in My Book of Bible Stories was revolting; that it amounted to a slander of Jehovah. I gave them this letter and acknowledged that it put us all in a difficult position.
The repercussions of that letter took a year to play out. If you wished to know more, I am not ashamed to tell anyone although it has been painful to feel the censure of my brothers for declining to support the literature on this topic. I did end up writing the Branch. But afrom the very first of this process the brothers checked with me periodically to remind me that I was not to discuss the views I held on Genesis 22 and to remind me that we only learn the Truth through the Faithful Slave. The last meeting I had with the brothers they were very respectful but repeated the warning against talking to the brothers and sisters on the subject. We read Titus 3:9,10 together. I told them that I was not interested in starting a new religion or sect--far from it . The experience that I had had with them along with the Society's response convinced me that Abraham's faith was antithetical to corporate religion.
I would be glad to answer whatever questions you have about the events that took place that moved me out of the Organization. I have copies of the written correspondence that took place between the Branch and myself.
I am a sinner; but in this matter I did nothing wrong except take seriously my obligation before God. Maeve
I have a few Jewish friends, yes. I'm sure the Witnesses know that most early Christians were Jewish, so how is that Christ abandoning and condemning them individually?
Christ condemned Jewish teachers who taught their people that God was more about scrupulously observing rules than mercy, and that traditions which led them to practices unloving things were more important than love. They had missed the point of the law, where it was to lead them. He didn't condemn individual Jews, or else he'd have been condemning his own disciples!
You know, kind of how Witnesses teach that actual blood is more important than the life it represents and miss the point that life itself is sacred. The blood is merely a symbol of life, not life itself...unless you think your blood can exist without you?
You know, I'm thinking that Jesus was not a Jew or a Christian. He was just faithful. I think religions get caught up so much in "message control" and most of us buy into it. What about the Way and tha Truth and the Life? I've been thinking about that. I do not dismiss any of the teachings of Jesus at all. I'm just having to reevaluate them since I was squeezed out of religion this year.
I follow your posts, mindmelda, and I enjoy the sharp points you make.
Good night . Maeve
MadJ?
You are unusually quiet on the board tonight.
