by theMadJW 277 Replies latest watchtower bible
As you know MadJw, Satan and I are tight.. Of course I believe in Hellfire. I was promised I would take over the buisness, since Satan's son is a slacker. So I have the job of running the family Buisness when I go to Hell. So I got that going for me.....
That's my new step Dad.
Darth Plaugeis
LOL
Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Hi Tammy,
Thanks for the reply.
Please understand that I am still considering the meaning of all the things that speak about hell or eternal torture, but I will do my best to explain where I am at in my thoughts.
Cool :)
Actually, I would rather share my thoughts on the entire parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Assuming you believe that it is a parable?
Personally, I do not see it as a parable. The possibility that this is a parable or literal is thus:-
The evidence that Jesus is not speaking in parables here is :-
Luke 16:22 - The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. (in hell) Take note that the beggar is carried to Abraham's side, not God's.
My understanding is that Abraham is with Moses, Enoch, Elijah and the rest of those who lived by faith Hebrews 11, Luke 23:42-43 at the right hand of the Father Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 12:1
Luke 16: 26-27 'And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
Paul explains this better than I ever could, when speaking to the Gentiles. Romans 11:25 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in."
There is a problem with the "cannot cross" with that explanation when reading these chapters for example Romans 11, Galatians 3
Others have broken this parable down far better than I have, and some of the things that I list could probably mean other things... but this rendition seems far more in tune with Jesus' teaching about the kingdom of heaven being taken from the Pharisees/Jewish nation and given to those who will recognize Christ, and produce its fruit.
Where those who "broke the parable down" JWs or other teachers who do not believe the doctrine of a literal Hell?
Luke 17: 20-21 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 'the Kingdom of God does not come visibly, nor will people say 'Here it is' or 'There it is', because the kingdom of God is within you.
Since we can apply the kingdom of God to the here and now, then we can also apply 'hell' (exclusion from the kingdom of God) to the here and now.
Indeed. If there is a literal heaven now where those who believe go, there is a literal alternative 2 Peter 2:4
Consider also that this here and now began at the time when the kingdom was taken from the jews and given to those who would produce its fruit, and continues today.
Their worm has not died, and their fire has not been quenched for nearly two thousand years.
If you read Isaiah 66, you will see that Jesus needs to return in glory, the day of judgement occur and the new Heavan and Earth be revealed before Isaiah 66:23-24
Jude 1:7 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
First, Sodom and Gomorrah did not have God - since they gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. Second, they were wiped out and only the memory of the things they did and their destruction remains to serve as an example. So take your pick at which of those two things is the example of eternal fire: the exclusion of God, or their total destruction.
In a similar way to the account of the rich man and Lazarus, Sodom and Gomorrah are a literal city and the events that occurred there literal. Thus, once again the sensible conclusion is that the judgement to come is literal and the same, yet eternal.
(keep in mind that none of their fate is eternal if that day of judgment is meant to be more bearable for Sodom than for Capernaum. Matthew 11:23-24)
There are degrees of punishment in Hell, as indeed there are degrees of inheritance in Heaven
This tells me there is punishment for the wicked when Jesus returns. But there does seem to be some sort of conflict in what we understand eternal punishment to mean - unless we believe that there are varying levels of severity in eternal punishment. Example - all the passages that say the day of judgment will be more bearable for some than for others.
The unsaved dead are now in Hell (Hades). Come the day of judgement, Hades is thrown into the lake of fire (the second death)
Honestly, I don't know exactly how to reconcile this or others to my search yet. That doesn't mean there isn't an explanation; only that I haven't found it yet. It's hard to read the NT with eyes that have no bias to the things we've already been taught.
Indeed. You need to ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. There are all kinds of explanations but only His matters John 14:26 . He is the Spirit of Truth John 15:26
I'm not going to try and go into Revelations yet. The book is extremely symbolic, and open to many different interpretations. I could probably squeeze my thoughts in there if I wanted to, or find people who have already done so... but I'm really trying to ensure that I look at scripture without the bias of someone else's conclusions.
Bear in mind the basics of Revelation are in the rest of the bible, Isaiah, Daniel, the Gospels etc. Revelation just has some specific details and prophecies which will be of importance when the time comes such as the "mark of the beast" etc. but the framework is already clearly laid out in the rest of the bible.
So these are my thoughts and views. I apologize, because they're probably rambling since I'm still in the searching stage. But I just want to read the NT with eyes that aren't biased by what has been commonly been taught in organized religion, and I want to keep the love of Christ utmost in my mind as I'm doing this.
Amen! All that counts is Jesus. Find Him and the rest falls into place.
God-willing, I will find the truth. (None of which I believe is more important than living according to Christ's teachings in the here and now, btw)
Agreed! We just need the savvy of His Spirit so we are not misled by false teachers and false prophets :)
Every blessings in Christ,
Stephen
Speaking of false paths.....................how about those followers of the Sparkly Pants and Miracle Frosty Flakes
You know if some people would just brush up on their 'all things Jewish' they wouldn't have the problems of the Literalist Fundamentalists.
The Jewish age of enlightenment is about 2400 years old an still progressing, the Fundamentalists age of awakening hasn't, apparently, even begun yet.............. but it will.
Amazing how one thinks they impress with CNPs.
Did Jesus LIE, Hellfire Believers, when he said resurrection & judgement would come at a future time?
Did GOD lie when He told Adam & Eve they would die- not fry or fly?
"If you want to know about the Old Testament, ask a Jew. They will take time out of their very Jewy, Jewy day to explain it to you." Lewis Black
Hi, Mary - thanks for your comments and perspective! I think I miscommunicated one thing, though...
Rather than simply take what he said at face value, you seem to go to the ends of the earth in trying to explain away the fact that Jesus himself apparently believed in an afterlife.
I wasn't trying to say that I don't believe in an afterlife. I do, absolutely. There are far too many references that Jesus made as to his return, that it would be foolhardy to believe otherwise. I just think that we can have 'hell' (the lack of God) in the here and now, as well as the kingdom of God in the here and now - the spiritual death and life that Jesus spoke of.
I'm trying to look at the different times that Jesus spoke about life and death, and determine which of those were about spiritual life/death, and which were about physical and the afterlife.
'...between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us' it certainly could not be talking about Christ being the "chasm", as you claim, because history tells us that those who might not initially accept Jesus as the Messiah could certainly change their minds and "cross over" if they became believers down the road.
Individual people can and have changed their minds. But those who call themselves Jewish do not accept Christ, and those who call themselves Christian, must do so- obviously :). But even Paul says that the Israelites were experiencing a hardening until the full number of the Gentiles could be brought in. (I concede that there are messianic Jews, but I don't think the Jewish community recognizes them as Jewish) And Paul even became disgusted with his own, and said that he was going to the Gentiles from then on.
So there is a chasm, even now. Though I freely admit that I may not understand what that chasm properly is.
The jist of the parable seems quite obvious: The Rich Man was well, rich. Jesus wasn't condemning him for that. What he was condemning him for was the lousy way he treated those who were diseased, poor, outcasts and had no hope. He didn't give them a second thought as he was too busy indulging himself in an orgy of material comforts. Who was it that Jesus spent alot of time with? The diseased, poor, outcasts and those who had no hope. And this is exactly what he told his followers to do. What did he condemn the Pharisees for? For the exact same thing that the Rich Man was condemned: treating the less fortunate like shit under their sandals. The idea of this parable is that if we care only about ourselves and never lift a finger to help the less fortunate in this life, don't expect any reward in the next life.
Can't argue with this analysis- and you have a very valid point about Chapter 16 being all about the love of money.
I just wonder about this: while the Rich man might have done things that show reasons for his exclusion from 'heaven', does the poor man get in simply because he was poor? The parable says nothing about whether he was good or bad. It only says that he longed to eat from the rich man's table. This just makes me think that there may be a deeper meaning.
I could be reading too much into it, of course. But what I don't believe this parable proves is the existence of hell.
But I sincerely appreciate the feedback.
P.S. - Just so everyone knows, I have no idea what the JW explanation is on this parable. We never got that far, but then, no one had to work very hard to convince me that hell (eternal, individual, torture) was most likely a false doctrine. The explanations that I've discovered, and added to, are from other groups or individuals who don't believe in hell. And I just cannot understand the purpose or point of a place of eternal torment.
Tammy
Thank you, Stephen, for responding... and for understanding that I am still learning and considering; and not trying to state my thoughts as fact.
I don't really have much to add. You gave me many things to consider as I study, specifically:
- When Jesus explains a parable, He tells us who the literal people and things that are depicted.
Bear in mind the basics of Revelation are in the rest of the bible, Isaiah, Daniel, the Gospels etc. Revelation just has some specific details and prophecies which will be of importance when the time comes such as the "mark of the beast" etc. but the framework is already clearly laid out in the rest of the bible.
I had recognized the parallels in the rest of the bible. I hadn't considered framework and timing to aid in understanding, though. Thanks.
Regardless of what I may find in the bible, I absolutely do not see the point or purpose of a place called hell, and even less point in varying degrees of punishment for eternity. What purpose does eternal punishment serve- to either those being punished, or to those in heaven?
Annihilation (as the second death) is the closest thing I can come to accepting as perhaps being necessary. My reasoning might be flawed and based on emotion, but I honestly can not see the purpose of anything worse.
Indeed. You need to ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. There are all kinds of explanations but only His matters John 14:26 . He is the Spirit of Truth John 15:26. Agreed! We just need the savvy of His Spirit so we are not misled by false teachers and false prophets :)
Amen to both!
Thank you for listening, Stephen, and blessing to you as well.
Tammy
Hi Tammy,
Thanks for the reply :)
What purpose does eternal punishment serve- to either those being punished, or to those in heaven?
It satisfies the wroth of the Father who is holy and just.
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.
2 The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;
the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power;
the LORD will not leave the guilty unpunished.
His way is in the whirlwind and the storm,
and clouds are the dust of his feet.
See the whole chapter here Isaiah 65
JWs are quick to remind us that "God is love" and amazingly quick to forget the wroth of God. The later is not at odds with the former.
If someone murders then we are quick to demand justice. Indeed, it isn't loving to let murders go free and anarchy reign.
God is holy and sin needs dealing with. God is patient and has provided a way to deal with sin, His son took the punishment so we don't.
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [ a ] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Anyhow, check out Perry's thread, I think you might find it interesting.
Respectable People in Hell - A "How To" Guide
Blessings,
Stephen
tec said: Individual people can and have changed their minds. But those who call themselves Jewish do not accept Christ, and those who call themselves Christian, must do so- obviously :). But even Paul says that the Israelites were experiencing a hardening until the full number of the Gentiles could be brought in. (I concede that there are messianic Jews, but I don't think the Jewish community recognizes them as Jewish) And Paul even became disgusted with his own, and said that he was going to the Gentiles from then on. So there is a chasm, even now. Though I freely admit that I may not understand what that chasm properly is.
The problem with your theory though, is that the scripture you use above which talks about the Jews experiencing a "hardening of hearts" has absolutely nothing to do with the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. There's no connection there whatsoever.
I just wonder about this: while the Rich man might have done things that show reasons for his exclusion from 'heaven', does the poor man get in simply because he was poor? The parable says nothing about whether he was good or bad. It only says that he longed to eat from the rich man's table. This just makes me think that there may be a deeper meaning.
OK, to answer your question, look at it this way: The criminal that died next to Jesus. Was he a good man? The scriptures do not say what he had done to deserve cruxifiction so there's no way of knowing. However, because he showed faith in Jesus (when virtually all of his disciples had abandoned him), Jesus promised him that he would be with him "in Paradise" that very day. Another indication that the bible teaches that what's in a person's heart is what counts. No, the account in Luke does not say that Lazarus was a "good" person, but it doesn't say he was an "evil" person either. Apparently though, he was a good person, because evil people are not rewarded with heaven in any religion's 'holy books', as far as I know.
I could be reading too much into it, of course. But what I don't believe this parable proves is the existence of hell. I have no idea what the JW explanation is on this parable. We never got that far, but then, no one had to work very hard to convince me that hell (eternal, individual, torture) was most likely a false doctrine. The explanations that I've discovered, and added to, are from other groups or individuals who don't believe in hell. And I just cannot understand the purpose or point of a place of eternal torment.
And therein lies the problem. Instead of approaching the scriptures with a completely unbiased point of view (something that can be very difficult), you are going into it with the mindframe that: 'I don't believe in Hell, so this must mean something else'. And you will never understand the scriptures if you approach it that way. That is what JW's and other groups, such as Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians, and others do and that is exactly what Charles Russell did when he began his "independent studies" 140 years ago. He did not read the scriptures from a neutral point of view. He was already convinced that there was no Hell, so therefore, he reconstructed the scriptures to suit his own purpose. One of the best ways to approach the scriptures is academically. Believe me, you get an entirely different viewpoint when you do this and I would encourage you to take some courses at a university if you can, or even to read scholarly books on the subject. It's quite fascinating.
Whether or not there's a literal Hell, I have no idea. I don't see how a literal (physical) fire could harm a spirit creature, so it's possible that this language is used to denote a mental/emotional/spiritual torment of being cut off from God. That's just an observation though. And as for your question that you don't understand "the purpose or point of a place of eternal torment", hey---we do the same thing to people in this life. Look at someone like Scott Peterson. He'll spend the rest of his life in prison. While he may not be physically tormented, I'm sure he must be mentally tormented every single day. What makes you think God couldn't do the same thing?
