by passwordprotected 69 Replies latest jw friends
Math contains an automatic uncertainty. Are you aware of Kurt Godel's theorem?
The matter of the universe contains an automatic uncertainty. Are you aware of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle?
These have been proven by logic and are scientifically accepted by literally millions of athiests.
Therefore, the answer to the question: Can you be an atheist and believe in logic and math? is a resounding YES.
Terry, who's talking about God? Btw, what's 1x1x1?
You were talking about Atheists, right? That cannot be discussed without including the definition of Atheist which is a person who does not believe in--------in WHAT? In GOD. So, you were talking about God.
A man who is BALD is a man without hair. The implication of BALDness cannot be discussed without the fact of HAIR-less ness.
Multiplication is a quick method of Addition. 1x1 is a procedure that says: Take 1 thing 1 time. 1x1x1 is a procedure which says: Take 1 thing one time and take that 1 thing one time. No matter how many times you write 1x1x1 you are redundantly taking ONE thing and getting only ONE thing.
Trinitarians want to pretend this is some sort of demonstration of God's Triune nature. But, it is instantly refuted by asserting God is a Fiveune God and demonstrating it the same lame way with 1x1x1x1x1=1.
Is that what you have in mind?
Atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e. they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no God.
Math contains an automatic uncertainty. Are you aware of Kurt Godel's theorem?
The uncertainty in Math is self-referential. The "rules" of math in set theory avoid self-reference.
Within a certain system the proofs within that system sometimes lead to self-reference. Consequently you cannot "prove" those numbers within that frame of self-reference.
Yes math does "exist" and also logic and yes they are things like gravity exist but it is not matter it is a phenomenon created by matter. I think what you are not seeing is that you are confusing the word with the thing. Are words matter? no words are sounds used by us to describe matter and phenomenons but words do exits. Logic and math are results of matter like gravity am I making any sense?
Terry, who's talking about God?
You were. In four of your first 5 posts you talk about God. Is your memory going?
Woah, when did the Bible come into the discussion?
When I used it as an example of a book; the reading of which demonstrates that someone who does not believe in a god can accept the existence of logic and maths. Not on topic enough for you?
I personally find your style of debating abrasive and egocentric. Why tell us you will not be back for 6 months? I doubt if I am alone in hoping it will be 6 years.
Aren't you confusing quantum mechanics with mathematics?
Off topic, but no. Godel's theorem is mathematical - it basically states that any symbolic mathematical system must contain certain statements which are unprovable within that system. It basically disproved the Bertrand Russell theory of Principia Mathematica - mathematical completeness.
Computer scientist Douglas Hofstadter wrote an excellent book - Godel, Escher, Bach on the subject.
My point was that atheistic (or agnostic) math scientists have no problem with uncertainty; but that belief in logical uncertainty is not the same as belief in God.
Sorry Terry, I didn't see you had edited your question I quoted above.
Anyway, the premise of this thread is false because the thread author confuses natural physical and mathematical law (which contain uncertainties) with the "God" concept.
I am probably missing the point here however I don't see how believing there is no God (ie atheism) or gods, necessarily prevents one from believing in some other 'thing' unless the 'other thing' is by its nature dependent on a God or gods. For example, if I believed we were immortal why would that mean I had to accept there is or may be a God? Unless one is perhaps equating atheism with materialism - I don't see a necessary connection if so.
Let's use rocket science.
Using the laws of nature that have been deduced by the scientific method you can use mathematics to determine where an object in space will be at a certain time. Using these same laws you can use mathematics to determine how much thrust and fuel you'll need to launch an object from earth to intercept an object in space, you can also figure out when. Using logic and maths has a real concrete result here. If you were to take a faith based approach to space exploration "I shoot an arrow in the air. Where it lands I know not where.", or even better consult scripture or pray for guidance for when, and how to launch you're not going to get anywhere.
You don't have to pray to a god to figure out newtonian physics. I suppose you could pray first, and then calculate everything. Look at it this way.
A= Logic and math
B= Faith
C= successful mission
You can you A+B and get C, or you can just use A and get C, but if you just use B you're not going to get C.
OnTheWayOut, you're admitting that your worldview is contradictory. If that unsettles you, I can understand that. But please, move beyond using loaded questions and informal fallacies.
I am ending my participation in such threads by reposting my opening comments from a thread 7 months ago:
For the record, I don't believe in the God of the Bible, and I find it hard to believe in the God of any religion on earth. I am closest to atheist in my beliefs if you want a traditional title, but I prefer "Rationalist." I will do God's will for me when He directly tells me what it is. Until then, I am fine on my own spiritual journey.
That said, please feel free to state your own feelings/beliefs/spiritual journey. BUT, here's the point of the thread: JW's had to feel that they were "right" and all of "Christendom" and all of "Babylon the Great" were "wrong." They may have gotten that way when J.F. Rutherford discovered that self-induced "persecution" upon his flock could be manipulated into proof that they were on the "right" path to salvation. JW's are more about being "right" than anything else. They say that holidays and the cross and the military and the flag and birthdays and YADDA YADDA YADDA are "wrong." They say that door-to-door preaching, dedication to an organization, the stake, 1914, paradise on earth, YADDA YADDA YADDA are "right."
I don't need to be right anymore. I don't have to prove the nonexistence or the existence of Sky Daddy, Thor, Jesus, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jehovah, a trinity, Allah, whoever. I don't have to say there is sufficient evidence or a lack of evidence for evolution or for creationism.
Sure, I will comment on such threads if I want to. The threads that lend themselves to such discussions are part of my spiritual journey. But the arguments get so petty and pretty funny. Keep up the humor, don't take yourselves too seriously. Some of you believe there is only one path to salvation, but some of us don't. If your God wants me to find it, He will contact me. If not, don't worry about me, life was fun.
On the other side, some atheists, evolutionists, anti-Christians are insisting on their way of thought also. Lighten up on the creationists and Christians. If they never agree with us, does it really matter? We are above our old JW ways. We don't have to be "right" anymore. We just have to get along.
